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Anti-terrorist raids in Toronto?

DTD

TRIBE Member
judge wopner said:
with all due respect you are taking a hollow and lifeless stance, backing up your arguments with intellectually dated definitions that dont really apply here.

it is not racial profiling for 1 simple reason:

the men are from different countries. the only similarity among them is that they are of the same religion, or at least claim to be from teh same religion. establishing a persons's religion does not happen by simply id'ing them as brown, considering most brown people arent muslims.

secondly youre using a smokescreen to cover up what is actually going on here; terrorism , are the suspects innocent guilty.


their innocence or guilt is at question, not their race.
Oh so its ok to target someone based on religion? :rolleyes: Also i dont see alot of white muslims being targeted.
 

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
DTD said:
Oh so its ok to target someone based on religion? :rolleyes: Also i dont see alot of white muslims being targeted.
Aren't white and brown muslims the same religion???? How can you target these guys for their religion but not target OTHER MUSLIMS for their religion--IT'S THE SAME RELIGION!

DUMBASS! They weren't targeted for their religion! They were targeted because they were trying to build BOMBS.

Jesus, come on.

Nobody is questioning that these guys were trying to fuck around. The only controversey here is how it's being presented to--and in--the media.

There's no fucking racism in this case at all. There is no evidence to indicate such a thing. The fact of the matter is that most Muslims are not terrorists, but today most terrorists happen to be Muslim. In the 70s many more terrorists were white Europeans.

Get off it.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
DTD said:
Oh so its ok to target someone based on religion? :rolleyes: Also i dont see alot of white muslims being targeted.

what the fuck are you talking about?

did you even read my post?

dude, you should change your name to "DDT" becuase jake the snake must have ponced you one during your days a one half of the killer bees!!! :p

just joking,,
but for real, your post is retarted.

J
 

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
judge wopner said:
what the fuck are you talking about?

did you even read my post?

dude, you should change your name to "DDT" becuase jake the snake must have ponced you one during your days a one half of the killer bees!!! :p

just joking,,
but for real, your post is retarted.

J
His post is very literally illogical in every way. They're targeting all Muslims for their religion, while simulteneously not targeting muslims for their religion. I'm not even sure he know what he thinks.

They should target jerks who don't read posts.
 

2canplay

TRIBE Member
I suppose, what is most striking, and obvious, even from the first few hours this story broke, is the poor quality of the alleged terrorists. I'm supposed to believe that a bunch of kids, mostly semi-employed misfits or out and out teenagers, were capable of blowing up the stock exchange and the storming the Parliament. Now, why I should believe that that is possible, from a bunch of people who can't even find jobs, I don't know.

I suppose, if I were the type of person who scared easily and who felt that "crazy muslims" are capable of anything, really because they are animals, I might give it some creedance. However, remembering my history in University, and specifically recalling the unfortunate and similarly hystaric and hyperbolic stories of the Black Panthers and The Weatherman and other so-called radical movements that aimed to destroy the very fabric of society, I'm inclined to give little countenance to political or police rhetoric.

Sadly, adolecent boys talk shit - we all do. We are all tough and we all don't like the powers that be...this is universal. Some grow out of it, some don't - they become drop outs, misfits, doctorate students - whatever. Talking shit and actually doing something are miles apart from one and other.

Now, granted, some of these people did go further. No question. However, is a reasonable response to round up every kid who the two main perps have come into contact and throw them in jail and isolate them, even from their families? 14 or 16 year old kids? Are you joking me?

If are goal is to integrate these kids, make them appreciate and love this country, would it not be better if the RCMP came out in the public and said, "it is important to draw a distinction between serious men, who have hate and had a plan, and the misguided youth who may have been sucked into the orbit of persuasive men..."???

No, that is not what the RCMP do. Nor, the government. Instead, they fan the flames of terror, hatred and racism, by saying nothing or reacting as if these young boys are guilty. And why not? Most Canadians believe that 16 year old Muslims are capable of such a crime - we see it in Palestine everyday, right?

I've read about this stuff in history class, its sad that I have an opportunity to live it. We will look back on this episode and cringe. As one criminal attorney commented on Monday - "I have seen a lot of fertilizer over the last 4 years..."
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
No offense, but I'm generally getting tired of the flame wars and derogatory commentary that seems to be consuming this forum lately. Can we get over ourselves soon?
 

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
~atp~ said:
No offense, but I'm generally getting tired of the flame wars and derogatory commentary that seems to be consuming this forum lately. Can we get over ourselves soon?
Fiiiiiine.
 

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
2canplay said:
I suppose, what is most striking, and obvious, even from the first few hours this story broke, is the poor quality of the alleged terrorists. I'm supposed to believe that a bunch of kids, mostly semi-employed misfits or out and out teenagers, were capable of blowing up the stock exchange and the storming the Parliament. Now, why I should believe that that is possible, from a bunch of people who can't even find jobs, I don't know.

I suppose, if I were the type of person who scared easily and who felt that "crazy muslims" are capable of anything, really because they are animals, I might give it some creedance. However, remembering my history in University, and specifically recalling the unfortunate and similarly hystaric and hyperbolic stories of the Black Panthers and The Weatherman and other so-called radical movements that aimed to destroy the very fabric of society, I'm inclined to give little countenance to political or police rhetoric.

Sadly, adolecent boys talk shit - we all do. We are all tough and we all don't like the powers that be...this is universal. Some grow out of it, some don't - they become drop outs, misfits, doctorate students - whatever. Talking shit and actually doing something are miles apart from one and other.

Now, granted, some of these people did go further. No question. However, is a reasonable response to round up every kid who the two main perps have come into contact and throw them in jail and isolate them, even from their families? 14 or 16 year old kids? Are you joking me?

If are goal is to integrate these kids, make them appreciate and love this country, would it not be better if the RCMP came out in the public and said, "it is important to draw a distinction between serious men, who have hate and had a plan, and the misguided youth who may have been sucked into the orbit of persuasive men..."???

No, that is not what the RCMP do. Nor, the government. Instead, they fan the flames of terror, hatred and racism, by saying nothing or reacting as if these young boys are guilty. And why not? Most Canadians believe that 16 year old Muslims are capable of such a crime - we see it in Palestine everyday, right?

I've read about this stuff in history class, its sad that I have an opportunity to live it. We will look back on this episode and cringe. As one criminal attorney commented on Monday - "I have seen a lot of fertilizer over the last 4 years..."
Okay, but does that change the fact that we've seen Muslims in Madrid, London, Morocco, and Istambul mass-murder civillians in the name of islam? I chose these examples because they are "western" countries. We shouldn't pretend that it's impossible for this to happen here.

Edit: And it doesn't change the fact that today the reality is that this type of political violence is spearheaded FAR more often than not by young Muslims. Look at the insane riots in Prais last year. Look at the mass murder of children and their parents in Beslan.

I'm all for cultural relativism, but we can't deliberately blind ourselves to this pattern.

Can you name an act of mass-murder against civillians in the West by any other non-state actor in the last 10 years? And I can say this while fully accusing the USA of committing mass murders of civillians in Iraq and afghanistan (and a dozen other places.)
 
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Vincent Vega

TRIBE Member
2canplay said:
No, that is not what the RCMP do. Nor, the government. Instead, they fan the flames of terror, hatred and racism, by saying nothing or reacting as if these young boys are guilty. And why not?
Why not? Because it may jeopardize the integrity of the case, that's why. Have you EVER heard cops and/or governments making public statements about defendants, especially in high-profile cases such as this?
 

2canplay

TRIBE Member
SellyCat said:
Can you name an act of mass-murder against civillians in the West by any other non-state actor in the last 10 years? And I can say this while fully accusing the USA of committing mass murders of civillians in Iraq and afghanistan (and a dozen other places.)
Tim McVeigh. The Atlanta Games Bomber. The nut jobs in DC. etc.

It happens all the time. Muslims are the most dangerous though. And we can see them a lot easier...their brown.
 

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
2canplay said:
Tim McVeigh. The Atlanta Games Bomber. The nut jobs in DC. etc.

It happens all the time. Muslims are the most dangerous though. And we can see them a lot easier...their brown.
ALso the Aum Shinriyko in Japan.

But neither of those, except for Oklahoma, were mass-murders.

And to say "it happens all the time" is totally absurd. It happens a tiny fraction of the time compared to those by Muslims.

It's the exception that proves the rule.

Edit: imagine your list compared to the list of mass-murders in the of Islam that one can compile. And that would be in the last 6 years too. AND it wouldn't even have to include the 1,000 Israeli civillians killed by suicide bombers.
 
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2canplay

TRIBE Member
Vincent Vega said:
Why not? Because it may jeopardize the integrity of the case, that's why. Have you EVER heard cops and/or governments making public statements about defendants, especially in high-profile cases such as this?
I mentioned Politicos...not just the RCMP. As well, it would not jeapordize the case... are you saying that even if the evidence doesn't warrent an attempted murder charge, an attempted murder charge should be levied??? If not, then a lesser charge, such as cohorting, what ever that means, could be explained to the media simply as cohorting, drawing a distinction between the more dangerous and serious offenders.

Or, we can just do it like the states with their gang laws and such. Hey, if you are in the general vacinity of a crime and you know the perps, you might as well of pulled the trigger. My wife has a cousin doing 20 years in NJ because he was in the area...niggaas - there all guilty anyways.

Hey and guys, just to be clear, I'm definetely not calling the RCMP racist...no way, those guys are doing their jobs. I also, would rarely call the Po-lice racist...99% are good guys, the rest just get caught up in circumstance. No question. What I contend is racist, is the hysteria this has caused amongst the general public and the Politicians. I definetely expect more from the Politicos. But, I guess I shouldn't.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
2canplay said:
It happens all the time. Muslims are the most dangerous though. And we can see them a lot easier...their brown.

actually no. most muslims are not brown by the standard to which you refer. the most populous muslim state is indonesia, they look more like philipino's or malay's than south asian indian people and the like.

arabs are not brown by any strech, nor are persians. id say arabs and the like could pass for souther italian or latin american before they pass for pakistani and what not.

and like i said before, most brown people, at least in canada are not muslim, i think hindu's and sihk's combined should out number them, never mind west indian christians.

its a nice linear idea that this is motivated so much by rascism but i think you are really off the mark.

was the arrest and capture of a young chineese boy who was accused of kidnapping and killing celia zhang the victum of racial profiling? was the press conference held shortly after his arrest announcing the charges unfairly swaying the media, presuming guilt?
 

2canplay

TRIBE Member
SellyCat said:
ALso the Aum Shinriyko in Japan.

But neither of those, except for Oklahoma, were mass-murders.

And to say "it happens all the time" is totally absurd. It happens a tiny fraction of the time compared to those by Muslims.

It's the exception that proves the rule.

Edit: imagine your list compared to the list of mass-murders in the of Islam that one can compile. And that would be in the last 6 years too. AND it wouldn't even have to include the 1,000 Israeli civillians killed by suicide bombers.
On another issue, your distinction between "west" and everyone else speaks volumes.
 

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
2canplay said:
On another issue, your distinction between "west" and everyone else speaks volumes.
It really doesn't.

I made that distinction to avoid cases of genocide in Africa, like in Rwanda, Sudan and the Congo where Islamism and Jihadism has nothing to do with anything. It would be out of context, because those conflicts are not international and therefore they cannot affect Canadians. Same goes for other exmaples like the Ciapas in Mexico, Maoists in Indonesia and Thaland, and Tamils in Sri Lanka (although that has affected us to a certain extent and is a good example because many Tamils are Muslim and they are the first modern case of Suicide Bombers.)

So really, it has nothing to do with a Western-centric world veiw.

Edit: The Sudanese thing is actually very related to Islamism, but not the international flavor thereof. Same goes for Bosnia, Macedonia and Albania. (It's a known fact that AQ was all up in those conflicts and were assisted by the US. But now that Canada is the lead combat force in Afghanistan, of course Canada will be a target for interntioanl jihadists....who just happen to be Muslims by definition. See what I'm saying?)
 
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Vincent Vega

TRIBE Member
2canplay said:
I mentioned Politicos...not just the RCMP. As well, it would not jeapordize the case... are you saying that even if the evidence doesn't warrent an attempted murder charge, an attempted murder charge should be levied??? If not, then a lesser charge....,
How the sweet fuck do YOU know what the evidence does and does not warrant???? It hasn't been presented in court yet!! Why are you making so many assumptions without yourself having the facts?

Are you a lawyer? A legal expert of sorts? Anything AT ALL which gives you grounds to make the kinds of wild assumptions you're making in this thread? (with all due respect to your "history in university")

And you have yet to explain how the "politicos" are acting racist. Although I probably shouldn't hold my breath.
 

2canplay

TRIBE Member
Vincent Vega said:
How the sweet fuck do YOU know what the evidence does and does not warrant???? It hasn't been presented in court yet!! Why are you making so many assumptions without yourself having the facts?

Are you a lawyer? A legal expert of sorts? Anything AT ALL which gives you grounds to make the kinds of wild assumptions you're making in this thread? (with all due respect to your "history in university")

And you have yet to explain how the "politicos" are acting racist. Although I probably shouldn't hold my breath.
Well, from my contacts in the Profession, don't be stunned if there is just a tiny thread of evidence connecting these kids to blowing up parliament hill.

Don't believe the hype, dude.

I suppose you need a certain perspective...
 

deafplayer

TRIBE Member
2canplay said:
Well, from my contacts in the Profession, don't be stunned if there is just a tiny thread of evidence connecting these kids to blowing up parliament hill.

Don't believe the hype, dude.

I suppose you need a certain perspective...
John Pike runs globalsecurity.org:
"They are putting on a good spectacle, a show," U.S. security expert John Pike said in a telephone interview from Virginia yesterday about the Canadian police show of force. "We are used to that here."

Pike said the kind of massive security force employed in U.S. trials, while clearly reinforced in the aftermath of 9/11, is not a product simply of the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks on 9/11.

"There has been an inexorable militarization of the police in the United States since the 1980s," he said, citing a gradual weakening of human rights groups that began a decade earlier. "But there has been a substantial ratcheting up of security since 9/11.

Problem is, said Pike, that police and prosecutors "make a big deal of what they've got, but as trials progress, we've repeatedly seen that the prosecution's case falls apart because they simply don't have the evidence."

According to Pike, the key to the Canadian case will be the three tonnes of ammonium nitrate with which the 17 suspects supposedly plotted to set off a bomb in southern Ontario.
(link originally posted by Boss Hog:
"Police put on a `good spectacle'
Snipers, leg irons, selected evidence, police brass — all calculated to sway the public, lawyers and security experts say"
Toronto Star.
Jun. 5, 2006. 08:16 AM
 

Vincent Vega

TRIBE Member
2canplay said:
Well, from my contacts in the Profession, don't be stunned if there is just a tiny thread of evidence connecting these kids to blowing up parliament hill.

Don't believe the hype, dude.

I suppose you need a certain perspective...
I rarely ever believe hype.....dude. On either side.

And to which "Profession" are you referring? Are you suggesting that you're familiar with the details of the Crown's case because somehow one of your "contacts" has tipped you off to it? Pretty ballsy of them...
 

2canplay

TRIBE Member
Vincent Vega said:
I rarely ever believe hype.....dude. On either side.

And to which "Profession" are you referring? Are you suggesting that you're familiar with the details of the Crown's case because somehow one of your "contacts" has tipped you off to it? Pretty ballsy of them...
Holy, this is now boring. By profession, I mean criminal lawyers...its a very small community and in any big case, the lawyers all talk, and like the police force, they have loose lips, in private (as long as its not their direct client).

We'll see. I'll remember this thread and we'll see...
 

DTD

TRIBE Member
Anbody who is saying these poor kids are quilty before even having a proper trail are racists . Plain and simple you cant hide behind all your myths and theories. This is a race motivated event.
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
DTD said:
Anbody who is saying these poor kids are quilty before even having a proper trail are racists .
Did you know that broad generalizations fall into the category of prejudice, which happens to be strongly correlated with racism?




...get it?
 

Vincent Vega

TRIBE Member
DTD said:
Anbody who is saying these poor kids are quilty before even having a proper trail are racists . Plain and simple you cant hide behind all your myths and theories. This is a race motivated event.
Which race?


(and LOL at "poor kids")
 

atbell

TRIBE Member
2canplay said:
I suppose, what is most striking, and obvious, even from the first few hours this story broke, is the poor quality of the alleged terrorists. I'm supposed to believe that a bunch of kids, mostly semi-employed misfits or out and out teenagers, were capable of blowing up the stock exchange and the storming the Parliament. Now, why I should believe that that is possible, from a bunch of people who can't even find jobs, I don't know.

...

Sadly, adolecent boys talk shit - we all do. We are all tough and we all don't like the powers that be...this is universal. Some grow out of it, some don't - they become drop outs, misfits, doctorate students - whatever. Talking shit and actually doing something are miles apart from one and other.

Now, granted, some of these people did go further. No question. However, is a reasonable response to round up every kid who the two main perps have come into contact and throw them in jail and isolate them, even from their families? 14 or 16 year old kids? Are you joking me?

If are goal is to integrate these kids, make them appreciate and love this country, would it not be better if the RCMP came out in the public and said, "it is important to draw a distinction between serious men, who have hate and had a plan, and the misguided youth who may have been sucked into the orbit of persuasive men..."???

No, that is not what the RCMP do. Nor, the government. Instead, they fan the flames of terror, hatred and racism, by saying nothing or reacting as if these young boys are guilty. And why not? Most Canadians believe that 16 year old Muslims are capable of such a crime - we see it in Palestine everyday, right?

I've read about this stuff in history class, its sad that I have an opportunity to live it. We will look back on this episode and cringe. As one criminal attorney commented on Monday - "I have seen a lot of fertilizer over the last 4 years..."
If it's late and I'm walking down a street, the last group of people I want to see is a group of boys between 14-16. Unlike men, tenage boys have something to prove, they are insecure, and they do not understand the consequences of thier actions.

For the same reason I don't think it is unwise to write off the dangers posed by "boys" to the public. Look at how Columbine went down. It's clear that this was a danger... but it is being played up. This should be a slap on the wrist conviction if they didn't have blasting caps (you need high explosives to get this kind of bomb started). I do not think the youngest offenders should be sent to jail. That's probably the worst thing to do, send some kids to the clink so they can really establish a strong hatred for the system while meeting a bunch of like minded peers. Might as well send them to a training camp in the middle east.

I'm also going to take aim at your criminal lawyer quote. Have they really seen a lot of fertilizer? I didn't think lawyers liked to get dirty or go to farms. Isn't it better that we have lawyers complaining about fertalizer then morticians complaining about being over worked?

Writing this off as nothing is as dangerous as treating it as a crime already committed. 16 year olds, from Neo-Nazis in Russia to (younger) child fighters in Africa, are capable of some of the worst atrocities simply because they are young but if they are given some thing to look forward to that is more tangible then 40 virgins they will probably choose that.
 

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
I still don't see any evidence whatsoever that this had anything to do with race or religion. They were trying to assemble a massive quantity of explosives. They haven't even all been charged. We don't know in what capacity each of the suspects was involved.

If you're suggesting that the Police rounded up a dozen random Muslims and tried to make them look like a terror cell, then I htink that's really more in your prejudicial imagination than in real life.
 
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