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Alleged 1980's hash dealer to run for leadership of Ontario PC party

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Bacchus

TRIBE Promoter
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MoFo

TRIBE Member
All I can say is that I am hardly a great person and that I never attempted to make this about me. If that comes across, well, I can be a pretty narcissistic and self-centered person so I think you probably have me confused with someone who doesn't see that. I am not ashamed of what happened to me just like how I wouldn't be ashamed of having my wallet stolen or someone coming up to me at punching me in the face. I have no idea where you're getting your logic that I would use a simple mention of relating to her for a cry for attention. That in itself is a sick thought, James. I made some fucking facetious comments about her haircut as I love making fun of hippies. Does that make me shallow? Sure. Of course it does. It was a joke. I think you need to lighten up about that but if it offends you, I am absolutely willing to not make any more derogatory comments about Thomson because clearly, she's someone close to you (or you're overreacting to dread jokes).

I don't take this case very seriously. I'll be honest about that. The allegations and the whole circus-y nature of it is just another piece of political gossip for me. I have a penchant for court cases and I watch a lot of court TV so I like scrutinizing everything about these types of stories. Having said that, I had a discussion with Jane last night and I understand what she's saying now: that it's not the content, that it's the actual act of scrutiny that contributes to the climate. And I agree with her and I am sorry for that.

And now having said that, (here we go turning it into something about me again), I didn't report my last sexual assault because I didn't think the police would give a shit about it. I was walking down the street, 2 men grabbed me, one stuck his tongue down my throat, the other held me and grinded me with his erection and they both said some of the most disgusting things I've ever heard (um, hello, buy me dinner first will ya?). Anyway, I also was scared to go to anyone about it despite feeling pretty violated because of the reasons that you and Jane stated. So I now understand where I was in the wrong.

The allegations aren't that serious in the sense of the degree of the act. That doesn't necessarily mean that it should get glossed over. I'm just in shock that you think that I would suggest that she was lying when in fact, I've never said that. I absolutely believe her. In fact, if you were my Facebook friend, you'd see that the moment she posted that photo of her and Ford, I reposted it with a comment that I was happy he was gonna get his for being one of the worst public figures in Toronto. So if anything, my bias is towards him as I'm not even giving him a fair shake before anything is filed.

And I apologized to you James in previous posts about hitting in a personal nerve. But honestly, I made a passing comment about being in a similar situation(s) in relation to one of my perspectives about this whole stupid story. And you turned it into a proposed cry for help which is in my opinion (anyone else see the irony?) somewhat insensitive to what I've disclosed and shaming me into never talking about it again openly. I hope you see the irony and hypocrisy in that.

And as for us being friends, James, we haven't spoken in a decade. We were friendly for sure but are you really bent up on that? I wish I could show you a Facebook log. I really do. Because I'm not comfortable with the fact that you think I deleted you because of this argument. I deleted you for exactly what I said: I don't want to share my life with people who I don't socialize with anymore. You can believe that or not. I swear on the life of my mother, my father, my own life that I cleaned out my FB friends a few weeks ago and continue to do so.

James, you have to understand, we're all older now and this is merely a message board to kill time on. If you think that I care about upholding an image on here, well, of course I do. But not to the degree that you think. I obviously still have some Tribers as friends and it would not be great to for example, make it hard for Jane or Erika to see me as this misogynist douche with a shitty sense of humour. That I care about. But yeah, I think you're being a little defensive when I'm just responding to your furor. I do apologize if I've offended you. I'm not sure what else to say.
 
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MoFo

TRIBE Member
Anyone wanna help me out here? Was I being a total dick to him? Is he trolling me or something? I'm still not certain!
 

MoFo

TRIBE Member
I would like to point out that these are only allegations, at present there is no victim if the allegations are false/made up.

you can only be a victim is something happened to you not because you said something happened, that makes you a liar.

Well, that's not entirely true. In the eyes of the law, yes, innocent until proven guilty but don't you think an alleged victim's statements should be taken as seriously as the alleged perp?
 
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MoFo

TRIBE Member
Jane is right; and you also never know how you are going to handle an incident until it happens to you. I've had several things happen to me and had very diffferent reactions.

I think using fb was really stupid, but who knows what I would have done if it had happened to me today?
I use Judge Judy's logic: if it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true. It doesn't make sense that she'd post on her FB that night if it didn't happen to her. There is no set up. That would be actually the obvious thing to do. People looooooooove social media. I doubt anyone would say they were groped by a HUGE political figure and be lying about it. Especially someone in her position. She's got way too much to lose to just post irresponsibly to her followers about a serious allegation.
 

kyfe

TRIBE Member
Well, that's not entirely true. In the eyes of the law, yes, innocent until proven guilty but don't you think an alleged victim's statements should be taken as seriously as the alleged perp?

All allegations are to be taken seriously and had she went to the police I would have been offended if they were dismissive about the incident.

That's not what's going on here, what is going on is that people are saying she tried to set him up. She is also saying she tried to set him up because she witnessed him copping a feel on another attendee, yet nobody has come forward. We have two people who confirmed the set up and we have facebook/twitter comments made by the alleged victim and a google search about cocaine to diagnose the accused state of mind by his accuser.

If you ask me Ford looks like he could be the victim of defamation and slander, I don't say that to discount Thomson but everyone is quick to jump on those calling BS or poking fun and with the same brush convicting Ford when there is really little proof.

One would think that at such a well attended event more people would have come forward if there was any real weight to the allegation against either side. So far two people have and they've both sided with Ford.

Am I missing anything else?

As for the President, I don't know him well but I love his movie reviews and he was good competition in Luke Fairs baseball pool back in the day but he clearly has a bone to pick with you.

Sunny what did you do!:D
 

NemIsis

TRIBE Member
That's not what's going on here, what is going on is that people are saying she tried to set him up. She is also saying she tried to set him up because she witnessed him copping a feel on another attendee, yet nobody has come forward. We have two people who confirmed the set up and we have facebook/twitter comments made by the alleged victim and a google search about cocaine to diagnose the accused state of mind by his accuser.

From what I understand, the two people who came forward were talking about Thomson trying to set Ford up with her assissant after he already grabbed her butt (?). She needed proof. Not exactly the best move, I concur.

Unfortunately as some have already said, we may never know what happened. For those who say she should have gone to the police, there's no guarantee she still wouldn't have been tried in the court of public opinion. Unfortunately without any proof, and quite a bit of 'he said/ she said' from a number of quarters, I even doubt going to the police now would improve matters.
 
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stryker

TRIBE Member
... that it's not the content, that it's the actual act of scrutiny that contributes to the climate. And I agree with her and I am sorry for that.

A healthy dose of scrutiny is perfectly acceptable. Pretending that there aren't people out there who would make false allegations to further their own agenda is naive; lambasting others for being skepetical is absurd. Skepticism is not an endorsement of the alleged incident, nor is it a blanket dismissal or marginalization of the complainant's allegations, or of the trauma they incurred. And it's certainly not an "anti" anything sentiment. It is merely a realistic and pragmatic perspective. People lie every day, for a litany of reasons and the unfortunate consequence of this is that those who are truly victimized, end up getting victimized twice. Until the day comes where we're all walking around with recording devices strapped to our heads, IMO some scrutiny is regrettably, a necessary evil.

stew
 

janiecakes

TRIBE Member
Except that a "healthy dose" of skepticism or scrutiny is not what people go through when they come forward with sexual assault or harassment allegations.
 

janiecakes

TRIBE Member
All allegations are to be taken seriously and had she went to the police I would have been offended if they were dismissive about the incident.

No, if she had gone to the police you would have all talked about how she was overreacting to getting her ass grabbed.
 
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stryker

TRIBE Member
Except that a "healthy dose" of skepticism or scrutiny is not what people go through when they come forward with sexual assault or harassment allegations.

That's a very big generalization. Not all people who come forward with sexual assault or harrassmant claims are brushed off, nor are they all supported. Plus, there needs to be a distinction between the climate experienced by someone in the media spotlight vs the general public. Media is a clusterfuck for anyone involved and it is nuts for anyone not directly involved to come to a decision based on media narratives. That whole ecosphere is a circus. I am personally of the belief that until there is a conviction these types of stories shoud have a media black out.

For the general public, it really comes down to the character of the victim.. Maybe I'm also naive, but it seems very probably that if the person came out to friends and family about their experience, and their friends thought this person to be honest, most anyone would believe them.


For those who are truly victimized, and don't come forward because they feel they wouldn't receive support from those closest around them, I have no words to express how truly sorry I feel for these people. Life is not always fair and that's a really shitty thing to have to live with. I wish there was a better system to support them, and give them the justice they deserve. For better or worse this is the system we have.



stew
 
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janiecakes

TRIBE Member
For the general public, it really comes down to the character of the victim.. Maybe I'm also naive, but it seems very probably that if the person came out to friends and family about their experience, and their friends thought this person to be honest, most anyone would believe them.

Yes, that is naive.
 

janiecakes

TRIBE Member
If you think that people are generally supported and showered with puppies and rainbows when they come forward with this kind of thing, then I have no idea what to say to you.
 

MoFo

TRIBE Member
I wish there was a better system to support them, and give them the justice they deserve. For better or worse this is the system we have.

I think what Jane is saying is that there is a better system that exists but isn't practiced. And that better system includes not contributing to the climate of victim-shaming no matter what we think. Which is what we're doing when we're being skeptical.
 
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It's not only that they are being scrutinized, but if it did actually happen, then the victim is forced to relive the incident all over again in a court, and even then risk the humiliation of being told that a court of law doesn't believe them or it didn't happened. Not many of us can imagine how doubly traumatic this is for a person that has suffered something like this? Judging from the lack of empathy being displayed, I'm thinking not many. Again, this is assuming that it actually happened, but why do we automatically assume that this didn't? Because she's perceived as a shady/crazy politician making an accusation against someone else that might be deemed the same?

I'm all for the "innocent until proven guilty" principal, but it's hypocritical to assume that he accuser is making shit up before it's even investigated - people have already made up their mind before it's even been looked into.

Also, the "healthy dose of skepticism" is understating shit to say the least - most people that make this claim aren't treated with much in the way of sympathy unless it's glaringly obvious that they've been hurt in some way (ie rape). Even if the person followed a textbook play by play set of rules that a accuser would need to follow in order to report a sexual assault, how many people would still accuse them of manipulating the system for personal gain because they followed it so well. It's a no win situation for the accuser, regardless if their accusation is legitimate or not.
 
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kyfe

TRIBE Member
If you think that people are generally supported and showered with puppies and rainbows when they come forward with this kind of thing, then I have no idea what to say to you.

I agree with everything you say, people who come forward face a cold systemic process and I can only imagine what they go through.

Most victims bring the matter forward in private and want to handle it discreetly, even you must admit her approach makes the allegation suspect. How many times have you went out of your way to frame another person? That is the part I question, who does something like that if it's true?

look at these quotes

“It’s a big waste of time to go through the legal procedures,”

“What are the signs of cocaine use, I looked it up [on Google]. And it’s, you know, sweaty, talking quickly, out of it, arrogant. Like all these things were on there.”

“I looked up the symptoms and it looked like it was cocaine use, it could have been anything like that, I’m not sure what it is. I’ve also read that diabetes could have some odd effects. I’m not sure what was wrong with him, but there was definitely something wrong with him that night.”
 

kuba

TRIBE Member
I think what Jane is saying is that there is a better system that exists but isn't practiced. And that better system includes not contributing to the climate of victim-shaming no matter what we think. Which is what we're doing when we're being skeptical.

So every victim is always right? or wrong? or in the middle?

It's hard not to shame a victim who made the comments that kyfe alluded to. Or perhaps shame isn't the right word - it is hard to believe someone like her.

Let's flip it on the other side - if Sarah Thompson smacked a councillor on the butt and made a suggestive remark, and that male councillor reacted the same I would also be skeptical.
 

kyfe

TRIBE Member
So every victim is always right? or wrong? or in the middle?

It's hard not to shame a victim who made the comments that kyfe alluded to. Or perhaps shame isn't the right word - it is hard to believe someone like her.

Let's flip it on the other side - if Sarah Thompson smacked a councillor on the butt and made a suggestive remark, and that male councillor reacted the same I would also be skeptical.

that guy would get called a pussy, it's part of the double standard.
 

malcolm33

TRIBE Member
What I get:
1. The fact that everyone has a different reaction to violation, and that some reactions are better than others (e.g. getting angry and trying to set him up to get proof isn't the wisest move, but if you were just violated, do you think you'd be thinking clearly? I'd probably want revenge too).

2. Going onto social media; if you're an i-don't-take-bullshit-from-anyone type of person, I can see her just saying that night "fuck this guy, i'm telling everyone". I like to have the last word in a lot of arguments, and I can understand the desire to broadcast it to as many people as possible for immediate recourse. That said, I would follow up with going to the police in order to validate my claims.

What I don't get:
1. Going to social media, but not the police. I can see why (as has been illustrated above) victims may not want to come forward to the police as they not only have to deal with the initial violation, but now they suddenly face undue scrutiny from whoever deals with the case and whoever finds out about it (media, etc.). Clearly she's not fazed by the public scrutiny as she just shot straight for the most public of spheres with her allegations. In this regard, it's not fair for either of them; they both come across as guilty without any evidence put forth or any investigation carried out. He looks like a sexual predator, and she looks like she's spinning up a story.

2. Her claim that "another court case for Rob Ford is not what the city needs right now". If she's being genuine, that is noble of her; however, it doesn't make sense that a court case would be bad for the city, but unsubstantiated allegations of the mayor committing a sexual assault blasted all over social and news media would be acceptable for the city. To me, it seems like it would be better to have the court case so either a sexual predator is brought to justice, or an innocent party is relieved of those allegations. There is an end, a decision... this way there is just conjecture.

3. She's putting herself up as a huge target for a slander/libel lawsuit. If Ford is innocent, she should definitely be sued. I would be totally pissed off and ready to take legal action if someone decided to spread it around the city that I sexually assaulted them, and then said I may have been high on cocaine. That said, if I was the victim, I would feel exactly the same, and be ready to take legal action against someone that violated me sexually. I would probably have a strong initial reaction of wanting to go public with it, but then I'd back it up with legal action. Why put yourself in that position? Seems like not taking legal action so the mayor doesn't end up in court as a defendant will just lead to the mayor ending up in court anyway, albeit on the other side.




Regarding James vs. MoFo, this is a goddamn forum. Lighten up. Yes, this is a serious matter, and joking about a victim's appearance isn't a good thing to do, but we're on the internet here... if you get offended about something you read on a forum, you need a thicker skin. Bringing who deleted who on facebook into this just smacks of immaturity, as does belittling MoFo's accounts of personal experience with sexual assaults. Discussing personal experience does not automatically equate to "making it all about me".

Janiecakes: What do you mean by "you all"? You're dead wrong that I would say she's overreacting if she went to the police about this. If we were talking personally and you said this to me directly, I'd take offence... but after all, this is the internet. ;)
 
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