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admissions policies

scruffy1

TRIBE Member
Article

New process called discriminatory
T O P S T O R Y - By Thulasi Srikanthan and Gabrielle Giroday, Journal staff
A new Faculty of Arts and Science policy on aboriginal students is being called racist by the Campus Federal Progressive Conservative Club and the Ontario Progressive Conservative Campus Association.

Both organizations are demanding Principal Bill Leggett revoke the new policy, which allows aboriginal students access to a different admissions process than other students.

“If racial discrimination is allowed to establish a beachhead at Queen’s, who knows where it could rear its ugly head next?” asked Kasra Nejatian, president of the Queen’s University Progressive Conservative Club in an e-mail sent to the Journal.

The policy in question would allow for the admittance of 10 aboriginal students to the Faculty of Arts and Science under a separate process from the general admission.

Christine Overall, associate dean of Arts and Science and the co-chair of the Aboriginal Council, said in a previous interview with the Journal the policy was put into place to compensate for the extraordinary under-representation of students at the University.

She had said the council wanted to ensure high entrance grades do not discourage aboriginal students from attending the University.

“First of all, it’s not true race will be the first factor considered,” she said. “I don’t see what is racist about this policy.”

She said the new process did not constitute a quota system because aboriginal students are not required to apply through the alternative process. If they choose to apply through the standard admissions process, their background will never be examined, she said.

President Bill Leggett had emphasized the historical presence of aboriginals in this country in a previous interview.

“[Aboriginals] ... were here in this country before all of us ... and continue to be under-represented,” he said.

Dan Mader, the president of Ontario Progressive Conservative Campus Association, said the admission policy is a shocking example of institutionalized racism that has no place at a Canadian university and will not help aboriginal people.

“It is a laudable goal,” Mader said. “The problem is that once you start [admitting people based on race, the question is, where do you stop?” Mader said if special treatment is given to one group, other groups will start demanding it.

Mader said the government needs to start improving the education opportunities at the reserve level so that special policies would not be needed at the university level. He said he is against policies that “lower the standards” and make special exemptions for a specific group.

“If we ensure it is definitely a temporary program, it would be okay,” Mader said.

“My great uncle attended Queen’s because it was one of the Canadian universities that did not use a quota system to exclude Jews ... it is truly sad that it is now bringing back race as a factor in admission decisions.”

Kasra Nejatian, president of Campus Tories, said he believed the new process would be divisive.

He said he would be uncomfortable with being admitted to an institution based on his skin colour.

“People should be treated on their merits,” he said.

Sean Rodgers, communications director for the Conservative Party on campus, agreed.

“I share the frustration of OPCCA President Dan Mader at this change in the admissions requirement,” he said.

“This university should remember that it is dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge and truth, not the artificial creation of a ethnically diverse environment.

“All aboriginal students should have a fair chance at a university education, but that is the collective responsibility of society and not of the admissions office.”


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This is the article that sparked the discussion amongst my friends and I and I'm curious what other people think of such admissions policies.

It of importance to note a few things, that are facts:

1. The Principal is not responsible for this policy being in place, but rather the Senate, which is a group of elected representatives who are responsible for all academic related policies at Queen's. As a note, all but 1 member out of all of Senate (50-60 people sit on Senate) was against this process being put into place.
2. 10 spots are set aside from the general admissions pool for those of Aboriginal descent. Should not all the spots be filled they will be returned to the general pool.
3. Nothing requires a student of Aboriginal descent to applying through this process.
 
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skyparty

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by scruffy1
[2. 10 spots are set aside from the general admissions pool for those of Aboriginal descent. Should not all the spots be filled they will be returned to the general pool.

i say, no matter where you come from
you should apply like everyone else
and face the same shit.

i agree with the discrimination.

i don't care who landed in canada first....

fair is fair.


you got the grades? the brains?

you want special treatment?
apply as an ASL student like the rest of em.
 

Vote Quimby

TRIBE Member
Fucking stupid. Instead of making available 10 spaces to fill an imbalance, maybe they should look at the reasons why there are so few Aboriginal students at Queen's and address those reasons.

No person should be given a spot based on their race. They should earn it like everyone else.
 
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lucky1

TRIBE Member
Maybe they should look at something that will help students in the long run such as U of T's Bridging program that helps teach the skills necessary to do well at university. Letting people in isn't going to mean they'll be successful.
 

Muad'ib

Well-Known TRIBEr
I think that 10 spots really isn't that big of a deal. I understand that most of you disagree with the principle, but I think that if we are ever to figure out what is wrong with our Aborigional communitues we have to have some members of it with the education and skills to recognize the problems. I concede that "giving them a free pass" to Uni may not be the best solution but at least it is an incentive to apply. I think that the education system and living conditions on a lot of reserves limit the opportunities of their residents; people don't know that they are smart enough to achieve educational success, and don't know how to start a movement towards social change.
 

AlyG

TRIBE Member
This is not new. If you look at most school or program admissions you'll see similar exemptions. What people should look at is the success rate for the students admitted under such policies.
 

jus me

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by scruffy1

Queen’s University Progressive Conservative Club
Ontario Progressive Conservative Campus Association

Kasra Nejatian, president of Campus Tories , said he believed the new process would be divisive.

Sean Rodgers, communications director for the Conservative Party[/U] on campus, agreed.


“My great uncle attended Queen’s because it was one of the Canadian universities that did not use a quota system to exclude Jews ... it is truly sad that it is now bringing back race as a factor in admission decisions.”

Queen's is making an effort not to be exclusive, but *inclusive* in regards to admission of aboriginal students.

And I don't think 10 students makes that much of a difference.
 

scruffy1

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by lucky1
Maybe they should look at something that will help students in the long run such as U of T's Bridging program that helps teach the skills necessary to do well at university. Letting people in isn't going to mean they'll be successful.

Just a note... the policy isn't in place to just let any native student in. They still have to do well and be wanting to go to uni and all that stuff, but rather it is for those who have marks slightly less then the cutoff but have still done things in their community to sort of "make-up" for the lower marks.
 
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scruffy1

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Vote Quimby
Fucking stupid. Instead of making available 10 spaces to fill an imbalance, maybe they should look at the reasons why there are so few Aboriginal students at Queen's and address those reasons.

This is the question though... is the problem Queen's or uni's in general? Do they have the same opportunities to do "well" that, say, someone from Toronto or Ottawa or Winnipeg has?

And what is this UofT "Bridging" program?

Where is swilly????
 

Littlest Hobo

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by AlyG
This is not new. If you look at most school or program admissions you'll see similar exemptions. What people should look at is the success rate for the students admitted under such policies.

What is the success rate?
 

Vote Quimby

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by scruffy1
This is the question though... is the problem Queen's or uni's in general?

And what is this UofT "Bridging" program?
And that's what they need to look at. Is it that Aboriginal students don't have the marks to get in to Queen's? And if they don't, is it because of the schooling that they receive in high school? Or are they just not smart enough? Or is Queen's not selling itself to Aboriginal students as well as they could?

There are many reasons why, but the school should look at them first before simply making 10 spaces available.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
its like most equity based programs,
the intentions are very noble and worthy of our consideration in canada.

but, i dont think they achieve their goal, and i think they run contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms.

the same logic could very easily be applied to any group who feels they are under represented and or repressed.

why not have spaces on a priority available to black people, east indieans, asians and religious minorities too.
to select natives on the sole basis of thier being here for so long is pretty weak rationale.
 

Muad'ib

Well-Known TRIBEr
They do this at most law schools in Canada too because first nations are underrepresented as far as lawyers go and overrepresented in jails.
 
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lucky1

TRIBE Member
The bridging program at u of t is for students whos marks may not have been high enough for admission, or who may not have the neccessary OAC's or for people who have been out of school a long time and want to go back and study at University. I think it really only applies for general arts and science students.

A student enrolls in the program at Woodworth College and the ycan choose from different subjustc such as english literature. The class is taught at the university and class sizes are really low. There are also counselors available to the students to give more one on one. By doing the course the students learn what is needed by them in university (eg. for exams, essays and self study) The credit is a full year credit and once as student succerssfully completes the course they can apply for admission into the faculty of arts and science and the credit counts towards their degree. By completeing the program students can help offset lower marks etc for admissions.
 

Klubmasta Will

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Vote Quimby
Fucking stupid. Instead of making available 10 spaces to fill an imbalance, maybe they should look at the reasons why there are so few Aboriginal students at Queen's and address those reasons.

or maybe they should look at how your great-great-great-great-great grand-daddy and his buddies stole their land and fucked up their entire civilization.

:)
 

AlyG

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Littlest Hobo
What is the success rate?

Depends on the school or program. (Translates to idunnolookitupyaself)

Schools with bridging programs would have a higher success rate because they help students adjust to the university environment. Others let them sink or swim, which is unfair to both the special acceptance pupils and those general stream applicants who "lost" a spot. The standard may be higher than some are used to or just a different instruction style.

Many instructors or profs don't give a rat's ass where or what or why, they just want the end result they've always expected.
 

Littlest Hobo

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Klubmasta Will
or maybe they should look at how your great-great-great-great-great grand-daddy and his buddies stole their land and fucked up their entire civilization.

:)

And your great great-great-great-great-great grand-daddy invented pineapple chicken and fortune cookies, to fool VQ's great-great-great-great-great grand-daddy into thinking it was real Chinese food.

The circle of life is complete. :)
 
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Muad'ib

Well-Known TRIBEr
Originally posted by Littlest Hobo
This thread is about lawyers? No admissions policy can sully that profession's good name!

Carry on.

No, but most law schools have a very similar policy. If you are status or metis you can apply to law school under a different category. Your marks can be a bit lower if you had a strong LSAT and some community service.
 

scruffy1

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Klubmasta Will
if those PC wankers are upset about this, wait til they find out those aboriginal students don't have to pay any tuition. :p

That was fucking hilarious....

Is this true everywhere or in ONtario or what?
 

PosTMOd

Well-Known TRIBEr
I fucked up my marks in university because of my psychological disorder, which was from a past I had no control over. Because of my shitty marks, I can't get accepted to any postgraduate stuff, though I believe I would do really well, since I have shook off a lot of my psychological shit.

The question is, should I be able to use special admissions policies that allow people with disabilities to be admitted with lower marks?
 

Evil Dynovac

TRIBE Member
I have much to say on this but for now I will only bring up one point.

I become sickened when one group tries to create opportunity for natives, only to have the Constitution shoved in their faces. That is a hypocracy that is galling. Any of you who invoke the Constitution with regards to this case are too insulated to know or care about what true justice is about.

To be frank, how dare you! The natives of Canada did not once receive the benefit of our Constitution or any other document preceding it since this land was settled by Europeans. Our forefathers indentured, imprisoned, and made hell for this race - insuring they received no legal rights or benefits - Constitutional or otherwise. How can we with a straight face deny them a place in our society with a Constitution they had almost no imput in?

Of course natives should be living in environments that educate their young to the degree that they can compete in university, but it's not bloody like that, is it? Until we all make that situation better then imperfect, stopgag measures must be implemented, lest we do nothing but argue the point vanely on a message board.

There may come a day when natives can be tested and treated as equals in our society, but sadly that day is not today. Until that time comes they need help and we should all know enough about justice to give it to them gracefully.
 
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