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7,000+ Killed By Iraqi Death Squads

Boss Hog

TRIBE Member
Baghdad official who exposed executions flees

Jonathan Steele
Thursday March 2, 2006
The Guardian

Faik Bakir, the director of the Baghdad morgue, has fled Iraq in fear of his life after reporting that more than 7,000 people have been killed by death squads in recent months, the outgoing head of the UN human rights office in Iraq has disclosed.

"The vast majority of bodies showed signs of summary execution - many with their hands tied behind their back. Some showed evidence of torture, with arms and leg joints broken by electric drills*," said John Pace, the Maltese UN official. The killings had been happening long before the bloodshed after last week's bombing of the Shia shrine in Samarra.

Mr Pace, whose contract in Iraq ended last month, said many killings were carried out by Shia militias linked to the industry ministry run by Bayan Jabr, a leading figure in the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (Sciri).

Mr Pace said records, supported by photographs, came from Baghdad's forensic institute, which passed them to the UN. The Baghdad morgue has been receiving 700 or more bodies a month. The figures peaked at 1,100 last July - many showing signs of torture.

Reports of government-sponsored death squads have sparked fear among many prominent Iraqis, prompting a rise in the number leaving the country. Mr Pace said the morgue's director had received death threats after he reported the murders. "He's out of the country now," said Mr Pace, adding that the attribution of the killings to government-linked militias did not come from Dr Bakir.

"There are other sources for that. Some militias are integrated with the police and wear police uniforms," he said. "The Badr brigade [Sciri's armed wing] are in the police and are mainly the ones doing the killing. They're the most notorious."

Some Iraqis accuse the Mahdi army militia, linked to the radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, of seizing and killing people. But Mr Pace said: "I'm not as sure of the Mahdi army as I am of the others."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1721366,00.html


*interesting choice, wonder where they might have gotten that idea from.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
We're barely at the level of Saddams killings after the 91 conflict let alone his 2 decades before that. Compared to the Iraq/Iran war we're still MILLIONS of body bags short.

People have a short memory on this guy. We're pretty quick to forget his unprovoked sacking of Kuwait, or his chemical bombing of northern Iraq. Or how about when he did his political purges at the start of his dictatorship when he killed thousands of journalists, property owners, teachers, politicians, police officers, military leaders, and anyone else who spoke against him.

Even if the 7000 is true and real, we're still talking peanuts compared to the 50,000 per year Saddam averaged during the period between 1991-2000 during the embargo. And it still pails in comparison to the 3 years before 91 during his lead up to the Kuwait invasion, and the 10 years of war with Iran when at one point he used children to clear mines by forcing them to run across a mine field.


Come on the guy was a mafia thug prick
 

Boss Hog

TRIBE Member
Ummm who armed and backed Saddam during a majority of that? If he had any power, it came straight from the red white and blue.
 
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Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Boss Hog said:
Ummm who armed and backed Saddam during a majority of that? If he had any power, it came straight from the red white and blue.

Really? Are you sure of that?

Cause it seems to me that his Nuclear reactors and program were french, his jet fighters and tanks were russian along with his missile technologies. His chemical weapons although sourced in the USA were actually shipped through the Netherlands by a Dutch broker (as were Israels). Realistically the US purchased little of his fuel compared to Britain and the majority of his bunkers were designed by german companies.

Saddam was always considered unique in that he paid cash for his military equipment, but the biggest source was the Soviet Union by a very large factor. Yes France did sell him Jets as well, and Britain technically sold him radar equipment but this was still limited compared to the 1000 tanks and 100 migs that the Soviets sent. Really the USA had a very limited involvement in comparison to just about everyone else.

Not washing the USA's hands on this one. But blaming this on the USA really doesn't work so well when the entire Iraq military was using Russian and French equipment. The USA sure didn't sell him T72's or SCUDB's, they didn't sell him AK47's and they didn't sell him Mirage's.

They also didn't sell him a nuclear reactor.
 

swilly

TRIBE Member
Ditto Much said:
Really? Are you sure of that?

Cause it seems to me that his Nuclear reactors and program were french, his jet fighters and tanks were russian along with his missile technologies. His chemical weapons although sourced in the USA were actually shipped through the Netherlands by a Dutch broker (as were Israels). Realistically the US purchased little of his fuel compared to Britain and the majority of his bunkers were designed by german companies.

Saddam was always considered unique in that he paid cash for his military equipment, but the biggest source was the Soviet Union by a very large factor. Yes France did sell him Jets as well, and Britain technically sold him radar equipment but this was still limited compared to the 1000 tanks and 100 migs that the Soviets sent. Really the USA had a very limited involvement in comparison to just about everyone else.

Not washing the USA's hands on this one. But blaming this on the USA really doesn't work so well when the entire Iraq military was using Russian and French equipment. The USA sure didn't sell him T72's or SCUDB's, they didn't sell him AK47's and they didn't sell him Mirage's.

They also didn't sell him a nuclear reactor.
:rolleyes:

when i get more time i will respond to this but...until then perhaps lets use aonther one of these :rolleyes:
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
swilly said:
:rolleyes:

when i get more time i will respond to this but...until then perhaps lets use aonther one of these :rolleyes:

So russia and france didn't arm him to the teeth? at one point the man contoled the 4th largest military in the world comprised almost entirely of Soviet equipment.



According to the wiki (I like using the wiki because if you disagree with the facts it presents and you can back it up we can change the facts to match what you can prove)

Tanks (Total: 2300)

* T-72 (700) (russia)
* T-62 (500) (russia)
* T-55/54 (500) (russia)
* Type-69 (350) (china)
* Type-59 (150) (china)

AIFV/APCs (Total: 3,800)

* AML-60/-90 (300+) (france)
* BMP-1/-2 (900) (russia)
* BRDM-2 (1300+)
* EE-9 (600+)
* EE-3 (300+)
* FV-601 (100+)
* FV-701 (90+)
* PT-76 (100) (russia)
* MT-LB (1,500+) (russia)
* YW-531 (1,000+)

Towed Artillery (Total: 1,900)

* M-56 105 mm
* D-74 122 mm
* D-30 122 mm (100+)
* M-1938 122 mm (400+)
* M-46 130 mm
* Type-59-1 130 mm
* M-1937 152 mm
* M-1943 152 mm
* G-5 155 mm (100+)
* GHN-45 155 mm (200+)
* M-114 155 mm

Self-Propelled Artillery (Total: 150)

* 2S1 SP 122 mm (russia)
* 2S3 SP 152 mm
* M-109A1/A2 SP 155 mm (france)
* AUF-1 SP 155 mm (85+)
* Majnoon SP 155 mm
* Al Fao SP 210 mm (france however a Canadian design)

Multiple Rocket Launchers (Total: 200)

* BM-21 MRL 122 mm
* ASTROS II MRL 127 mm (60+)
* BM-13/-16 MRL 132 mm
* ASTROS SS-30 MRL 180 mm
* Ababeel-50 MRL 262 mm (50+)
* ASTROS SS-60 300 mm

Surface-to-Surface Missiles

* Frog-7 (50) (russia)
* Scud-B (27?) (russia)
* Al Abbas (domestic copy of russian weapon built with license)
* Al Hussein (domestic design based on russian model)
* Al Samoud (domestic design based on russian model)

Fighters

The J-7 is a Chinese copy of the MiG-21.

* Dassault Mirage F1 (french)
* Su-20/Su-22 (russia)
* Sukhoi Su-25 (russia)
* Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 (russia)
* Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 (russia)
* Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 (russia)
* Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29 (russia)
* J-7 (china)

Surface-to-Air Missiles

* Crotale (france)
* Roland (france)
* SA-2 Guideline (russia)
* SA-3 (russia)
* SA-7 Grail (russia)
* SA-6 (russia)
* SA-9 (russia)



Sorry guys his military and weapons didnt' come from the USA. They were purchased from France and Russia.
 

Boss Hog

TRIBE Member
You forgot his chemical cache, and of course, where they came from.

And where was all this weaponry when the US invaded?
 
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Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Boss Hog said:
You forgot his chemical cache, and of course, where they came from.

And where was all this weaponry when the US invaded?

The first time or the second time? Cause the first time it was basically in the desert ready to go. The second time it was largely in the desert and in many cases burried there to prevent detection.

With regards to the chemical weapons, well again the source is difficult to determine. See the problem is that although they originated in the USA they were actually bought by a Dutch company and shipped through the netherlands. So from the american perspective these weren't going to Iraq and weren't considered to be weapons. This is also how Israel has purchased much of its chemical warfare program. So US in origin and design but sold by a Dutch guy working for a Dutch company shipped out of the Netherlands.

(currently he is on trial for what he pulled)

So I'll give you that the chemical weapons were of american origin but I don't think its entirely realistic to portray this as american ships dropping weapons off at a port for Iraq. Saddam isntead purchased the bits and peaces through a dutch company and had them flown in and assembled in his own labs.

But suggesting that this guy is a product of the USA isn't being honest. He was a product of failed britich and french foriegn policy and of a soviet union that dumped weapon system across the entire middle east and north africa where they have been nothing but a pain in the ass for everyone.

Saddam is largely a product of the Soviet Union not the USA.
 

deafplayer

TRIBE Member
Sorry guys his military and weapons didnt' come from the USA. They were purchased from France and Russia.
The first time or the second time? Cause the first time it was basically in the desert ready to go. The second time it was largely in the desert and in many cases burried there to prevent detection.

With regards to the chemical weapons, well again the source is difficult to determine. See the problem is that although they originated in the USA they were actually bought by a Dutch company and shipped through the netherlands. So from the american perspective these weren't going to Iraq and weren't considered to be weapons. This is also how Israel has purchased much of its chemical warfare program. So US in origin and design but sold by a Dutch guy working for a Dutch company shipped out of the Netherlands.

(currently he is on trial for what he pulled)

So I'll give you that the chemical weapons were of american origin but I don't think its entirely realistic to portray this as american ships dropping weapons off at a port for Iraq. Saddam isntead purchased the bits and peaces through a dutch company and had them flown in and assembled in his own labs.

But suggesting that this guy is a product of the USA isn't being honest. He was a product of failed britich and french foriegn policy and of a soviet union that dumped weapon system across the entire middle east and north africa where they have been nothing but a pain in the ass for everyone.

Saddam is largely a product of the Soviet Union not the USA.
First of all its well known and Im sure you're aware that the US sends arms through other countries for the purpose of obscuring responsibility as you just demonstrated... for example through Israel
So the fact that it went to a Dutch company and then to Iraq is not exactly powerful

Second, just cus much or most of his equipment has "Made In Russia" on it doesn't make him "largely a product of the Soviet Union not the USA."
...When the CIA was supplying the Kurds in Iraq's north with military aid they sent Russian and Chinese weapons, something William Blum calls "a standard means of ensuring [...] 'plausible denial'."


If you're a fan of Wikipedia, the Saddam Hussein entry states:
"The Reagan administration gave Saddam roughly $40 billion in aid in the 1980s to fight Iran, nearly all of it on credit. The U.S. also sent billions of dollars to Saddam to keep him from forming a strong alliance with the Soviets. 7"
Note #7 simply directs you to:
A free-access on-line archive relating to U.S.-Iraq relations in the 1980s is offered by The National Security Archive of the George Washington University. It can be read on line at [34]. The Mount Holyoke International Relations Program also provides a free-access document briefing on U.S.-Iraq relations (1904 - present); this can be accessed on line at [35].

The National Security Archive also says "Iraq received massive external financial support from the Gulf states[...]", some of whom recieve massive aid from the US themselves (Saudi Arabia).


The Wikipedia article on the Iran-Iraq war states "Much of Iraq's financial backing came from other Arab states, notably oil-rich Kuwait and Saudi Arabia."

And also that Iran used an array of American aircraft, including even "F-14 Tomcat fighters, which, according to a few sources, proved devastating to the Iraqis in the early phases of the war" and tanker aircraft

It has a chart of suppliers of Iraqi arms... note that this is simply the source of weapons, not necessarily the source of support
Theres an article all about "Arms sales to Iraq 1973-1990" with a more detailed chart showing year-by-year arms sales by various suppliers
It also discusses how an American bank manager was cought sending 5B to Iraq over four years in the late 80s, some of which was used to buy weapons


There is also a famous major scandal in Britain about the government, or more specifically intelligence establishment, secretly moving arms and dual-use equipment and technology to Saddam through British companies


[...]
In early 1988, after the Iraqi Army, with American planning assistance, retook the Fao Peninsula in an attack that reopened Iraq's access to the Persian Gulf, a defense intelligence officer, Lt. Col. Rick Francona, now retired, was sent to tour the battlefield with Iraqi officers, the American military officers said.

He reported that Iraq had used chemical weapons to cinch its victory, one former D.I.A. official said. Colonel Francona saw zones marked off for chemical contamination, and containers for the drug atropine scattered around, indicating that Iraqi soldiers had taken injections to protect themselves from the effects of gas that might blow back over their positions. (Colonel Francona could not be reached for comment.)

C.I.A. officials supported the program to assist Iraq, though they were not involved. Separately, the C.I.A. provided Iraq with satellite photography of the war front.​

Col. Walter P. Lang, retired, the senior defense intelligence officer at the time, said he would not discuss classified information, but added that both D.I.A. and C.I.A. officials "were desperate to make sure that Iraq did not lose" to Iran.
[...]
The Pentagon's battle damage assessments confirmed that Iraqi military commanders had integrated chemical weapons throughout their arsenal and were adding them to strike plans that American advisers either prepared or suggested.[...

...]
The effort on behalf of Iraq "was heavily compartmented," a former D.I.A. official said, using the military jargon for restricting secrets to those who need to know them.
[...]
A number of D.I.A. officers who took part in aiding Iraq more than a decade ago when its military was actively using chemical weapons[...] all believed that their covert assistance to Mr. Hussein's military in the mid-1980's was a crucial factor in Iraq's victory in the war and the containment of a far more dangerous threat from Iran.
FREE PREVIEW | OFFICERS SAY U.S. AIDED IRAQ IN WAR DESPITE USE OF GAS
August 18, 2002, Sunday
By PATRICK E. TYLER (NYT); Foreign Desk
Late Edition - Final, Section 1, Page 1, Column 6, 1463 words
DISPLAYING FIRST 50 OF 1463 WORDS -A covert American program during the Reagan administration provided Iraq with critical battle planning assistance at a time when American intelligence agencies knew that Iraqi commanders would employ chemical weapons in waging the decisive battles of the Iran-Iraq war, according to senior military officers with direct knowledge of the...
To read the rest of this archive article, upgrade to TimesSelect or purchase as a single article.
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20911FA38590C7B8DDDA10894DA404482


...or you can read the whole thing reproduced here:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/archive/2002/nytimes081802.htm
 
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atbell

TRIBE Member
Going back a bit, 7,000 dead is no real problem, it's actually an established means of balancing power.

See how other leaders have quite successfully used the same type of tactic to bring stability and legitimacy to their freely elected government in the first year of their rule.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERnight.htm

Knowing your history will show how it only takes a couple more years for the people to accept the collateral damage and for the newly established political powers to really hit their stride.


....


:eek:
 
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