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200 Billion?

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Would you support the federal government borrowing 200 billion dollars? What would it have to be used on to be acceptable to you? If you could invest 200 billion in Canada where would it go?
 
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Vote Quimby

TRIBE Member
No. The government does not need to borrow $200billion.

The books are balanced, the debt is being paid off. The government should continue this trend. Maybe even create a rainy day fund.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Vote Quimby
No. The government does not need to borrow $200billion.

The books are balanced, the debt is being paid off. The government should continue this trend. Maybe even create a rainy day fund.

yes this is conventional wisdom and is a very prudent option.

However being that tyhis is purely hypothetical what do you think you would spend it on. How would you create the greatest positive effect with 200 billion dollars.

I'll give you an easy example, I believe you can pay off almost half of the accumulated municiple debts and consolodate it in a single federal loan. With the reduced debt burden cities and towns would have more funds availible for various social programs.
 

OTIS

TRIBE Member
I like the prudent option, buuuut if we had to spend 200 billion, I'd say begin a public space program that's not just a guise to funnel money to the development of technologies for private interests, and spy technology for the military industrial complex. We can also use it as a good excuse to prevent a US/Norad controlled missile defense system from being installed on our soil.
 

Vote Quimby

TRIBE Member
Hypothetically, they should fund transit across the country. Allow systems to make repairs, purchase new, cleaner vehicles, upgrade systems.

Or better yet...

A MONO-RAIL!!!
 
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Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by OTIS
I like the prudent option, buuuut if we had to spend 200 billion, I'd say begin a public space program that's not just a guise to funnel money to the development of technologies for private interests, and spy technology for the military industrial complex. We can also use it as a good excuse to prevent a US/Norad controlled missile defense system from being installed on our soil.

Seriously?


200 billion I would have expected you to pick something more practical, like a massive public train system.

I understand that 200 billion seems like alott of debt, but considering we blew that in the first 4 years of Molroney its not that bad. Hell Rae burnt through almost 50 billion in ontario alone.

But with 200 billion you could half the class sizes accross Canada for decades. You could do public funded water fronts withoiut developers and make them actual public spaces. You could pretty much equip all hospitals straight across the board.
 

Vote Quimby

TRIBE Member
Smaller class sizes are the last thing we need. Keep em at 30 where they been for the past 60 years.

Now if you want the money to go into education, then fix the schools, replace old ones, new computers.

The money would be best spent on capital costs, not labour.
 

EffinHard

TRIBE Member
Borrowing isnt a bad thing. Canada's credit rating is very good at the moment because we've been able to manage our debts. Borrowing 200 billion and spending it on infrastructure would be a great idea. If Canada could use that money to decrease the "cost" of our services (energy, social services, health care), then in the long run it may be a good investment, it also may mean that we're able to increase those services.

The fact is, canada will not be able to achieve this by building a Tax Surplus. An influx of money right awa may be better in the long run.
 

EffinHard

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Ditto Much
Seriously?


200 billion I would have expected you to pick something more practical, like a massive public train system.

I understand that 200 billion seems like alott of debt, but considering we blew that in the first 4 years of Molroney its not that bad. Hell Rae burnt through almost 50 billion in ontario alone.

But with 200 billion you could half the class sizes accross Canada for decades. You could do public funded water fronts withoiut developers and make them actual public spaces. You could pretty much equip all hospitals straight across the board.

The thing is, you wouldnt want to use the 200 billion to "increase" the cost of our current services. Because once that 200 billion is gone, that means our costs are up, and we cant pay off the debt we built.


You cant just spend 200 billion, you need to have a plan that will, in the long run, help pay off that 200 billion, re: savings in spending.
 

EffinHard

TRIBE Member
Energy is a forward-looking way to spend some of that capital, and Im not just saying that because I work for a Fuel cell company =)
 
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Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Reasonably with 100 billion we could simply corner the diamond market and break up the deboers clan....

But beyond that. I agree you don't even want to be in a budget deficit situation. But are we at a point where a large scale infrastructure project would cause a large ripple effect in domestic industry and culture.

Would a high speed pan canadian rail system have a powerfull enough effect to pay off the 200 billion over the next 80 years. Would the ripple effect again make it worth while alone.

Is there some sense to look at a large scale alternative energy option. Could we invest in a way right now that would give us ten fold in socio economic benifits.

Is there validity to Canada assuming the debts of other countries? Or using borrowed money to develop industry elsewhere in partnership with other governments.
 

OTIS

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Ditto Much
Seriously?

200 billion I would have expected you to pick something more practical, like a massive public train system
If I was looking to be practical, I wouldn't borrow 200 billion in the first place. This is frivolous, to do something significant right? I say then that significance would be to change the paradigm of space exploration from one that is primarily a guise for military, intelligence, private uses, and secondarily for scientific exploration of space, to one where we have a program that IS used only for what it's intended to be -explore space, scientific research, developing civilian transportation systems, initiating extra-terrestrial living ecosystems. And becomes world renown for that.
 

AdRiaN

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Ditto Much
I'll give you an easy example, I believe you can pay off almost half of the accumulated municiple debts and consolodate it in a single federal loan. With the reduced debt burden cities and towns would have more funds availible for various social programs.
Paying off large amounts of municipal debt is not practical. Lenders and bondholders will not typically allow their debts to be retired all in one immediate payment. These credit arrangements have specific provisions with respect to when and how the principal amounts can be repaid.

In addition, municipalities can already apply for low-cost loans from the Ontario Municipal Economic Infrastructure Financing Authority (OMEIFA) created by the Eves government in order to allow municipalities to finance projects such as sewage treatment, roads & bridges, waste management, and public transit.
 

silver1

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by AdRiaN

In addition, municipalities can already apply for low-cost loans from the Ontario Municipal Economic Infrastructure Financing Authority (OMEIFA)

rearranging the letters of OMEIFA and you can almost spell Mafia.
;)
 

Adam

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by EffinHard
Energy is a forward-looking way to spend some of that capital, and Im not just saying that because I work for a Fuel cell company =)

Sweet..what Fuel Cell company do you work for? What kind of stuff do you do?
 
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Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by whatwaytoturn
Yeah.. spend it in energy.. create an off-the-grid renewable energy infastructure.


See to me if this could be done for 200 billion it might just be worth while. We preserve our resources for export and for necessity. We develop the future energy source and make ourselves an exporter of the next major technology. And we make business more efficent and effective and thus competitive.

If ever there was a time to borrow its now. If ever there was a time to do it, it looks like now. And with the US stumbling around everywhere they are giving us the time to make the next great leap. Europe has its own issues, the US has had its and we have had a very successfull decade. Is there merit to taking the risk as a society and trying something like this.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by AdRiaN
Paying off large amounts of municipal debt is not practical. Lenders and bondholders will not typically allow their debts to be retired all in one immediate payment. These credit arrangements have specific provisions with respect to when and how the principal amounts can be repaid.

In addition, municipalities can already apply for low-cost loans from the Ontario Municipal Economic Infrastructure Financing Authority (OMEIFA) created by the Eves government in order to allow municipalities to finance projects such as sewage treatment, roads & bridges, waste management, and public transit.

Can't argue with you on any of that, again just an example to get the thoughts flowing.

If ever there was a time to borrow the money its now. The US is forced to borrow, europe is in a confused state in many respects and we've got a great track record.

I'll be the first to say that balanced books come first. But does it make sense for us to take on something like space technology as OTIS suggested (again like the idea). Or do we develop a diamond industry, a large rail system. What would be worth it?
 

SlipperyPete

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Vote Quimby
Hypothetically, they should fund transit across the country. Allow systems to make repairs, purchase new, cleaner vehicles, upgrade systems.

Or better yet...

A MONO-RAIL!!!

.....the ring came off my pudding can!
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
who knows a good book to read on intoductory economics.

im lost when it comes to this.

i read about how our fed govt has a surplus, and to pay off debt.. how can we have both a surplus and a debt.
then the province had balanced books but then it didnt with a new govt... how so...

tonrot has a budget shortfall,....
seems like im hearing alot of negative in themedia about ontario and TO... how is it that the richest city in the nation cant get enough loot to pay their bills, considering costs for ttc have gone up and they have reduced service...

------

that being said if i had 200 billion,
id:

1. set up scholarships for extra bright kids to stay in candian schools,
2. invest in wind farms across the nation for power, they cover their own costs eventually too non.
3. redo the entire TO waterfront, should bring in lots of dough eventually too.
4. invest in health lifestyle and prevention type campaings to keep our aging and fat nation from overusing our strapped healthcare system.
5. fund research into alternative medicine, as a cheaper alterantive to current expensive medicine.
6. set up a nation wide camera system on road ways for photo radar, this will prevent lots of accidents, which saves us alot of money from health care and insurance premiums (and gridlock due to car accidents and what not.) ( and can pay for itself eventually w/ all the fines.)
7. pro rate hydro based on household income (not sure what it has to do w/ money but hey...itll make it easier on people non)
8. cancel all special treatment to first nations, stop all tax breaks and bullshit programs that havent helped them. eliminate all govt stuff that formally distinugishes them from canadians. as we are all canadians. use funds to give them all cash buy outs and be done with it.
ie: cash lump sum + scholarships to finish high school and university.
give them a hand up, no more hand outs.
big costs up front, but will save us in the long term w/ less beauraracy and ill treated natives.
10. no more long term ei/welfare for able bodied people. use the funds to get everyone long term into training.
then cut them. if theres no jobs in newfound land, move your ass somewhere else like immigrants have done when they came here in the first place. again big money up front but you could eliminate alot of people off welfare/long term EI and save cash eventually. (and thin out the workforce in saturated areas so that at least some poeple can get jobs.)

11. set up international registry for single ID, eliminate distinction of passport/liscence/sin#/health card etc etc, pay the big upfront cost for the tech. to have one card that has all info on it to prevent the massive overlapping of red tape that leads to millions lost every year and fraud.

most of this stuff will pay itself in a few years, so they are sustainable and make for a better society...
i hope!!:)
 
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AdRiaN

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by judge wopner
i read about how our fed govt has a surplus, and to pay off debt.. how can we have both a surplus and a debt.
then the province had balanced books but then it didnt with a new govt... how so...
Whenever the government spends more than it collects in revenue, it needs to borrow money to cover the shortfall (i.e., deficit). The borrowed money is our accumulated "debt". The debt grows in each year the government runs a deficit, and shrinks in each year the government runs a surplus.

With respect to Ontario's provincial accounts ... the "balanced budget" was a projection made in March 2003 for the coming fiscal year (2003-04) whereby by the previous government predicted that revenues would be sufficient to cover expenditures. When the Liberals took over in October 2003, the outlook for 2003-04 predicted a deficit of $5.6 billion. The actual size of the deficit (and hence the increase in Ontario's debt) will only be known after the books are closed on March 31, 2004.
 
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