• Hi Guest: Welcome to TRIBE, the online home of TRIBE MAGAZINE. If you'd like to post here, or reply to existing posts on TRIBE, you first have to register. Join us!

$15 billion in new military spending

deafplayer

TRIBE Member
This new spending is not just "replacing" "aging" crap. There will be new significant new expansion of Canadian "force projection" capabilities.
(Mind the atrocious reporting)


Ottawa to spend $15-billion to boost military

Major purchases of planes, helicopters, ships, trucks to be announced next week

GLORIA GALLOWAY
Globe & Mail, POSTED ON 23/06/06

OTTAWA -- The federal government is preparing to roll out a series of multibillion-dollar military spending announcements, including money for planes, ships, trucks and the helicopters the military said this week would save lives in Afghanistan.

The Conservatives will unveil a massive $15-billion procurement package at four separate announcements in four Canadian cities next week, sources told The Globe and Mail. The money represents one of the largest defence equipment purchases in Canadian history, and is bigger than most analysts had predicted.

The military would not comment on the planned purchases yesterday, saying they had not been confirmed by the government.

But Prime Minister Stephen Harper told Parliament yesterday that he is following through on a campaign promise to "correct 13 years of Liberal neglect -- that we would move forward with major military purchases including new supply ships, new trucks, new helicopters, and strategic and tactical airlift."

The new equipment will replace old vehicles and vessels, many of which need inordinate amounts of repair and others that are about to reach the date where they must be taken out of service.

In the case of the helicopters, they will fill a void that some say has created a dangerous situation on the ground in Afghanistan.

Mr. Harper will head to Edmonton on Wednesday to release the requirements for 15 new helicopters at a cost of $4.2-billion. The government is said to favour Chinooks.

When four soldiers were injured on a supply mission yesterday near Kandahar, General Rick Hillier, Chief of the Defence Staff, said helicopters would provide major assistance in bringing troops and supplies to forward operating bases. But, he said, the Canadian Forces simply don't own any of the kind of "workhorses" that are needed.

Defence critic Ujjal Dosanjh, whose own party had promised $12.8-billion for a military refit in the 2005 budget, said he supports the purchases. But he and Quebec Liberal Denis Coderre told a press conference yesterday afternoon that the expenditures will be fraught with legal challenges because of Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor's previous career as a defence lobbyist.

"There are three purchases in which there are five potential bidders, leading contenders for those contracts, who were actually Mr. Gordon O'Connor's lobbying clients in his past life," Mr. Dosanjh said.

Mr. O'Connor has said he no longer has ties with any of the companies and there is no need to recuse himself from announcing any of the purchases.
Mr. Harper will travel to Halifax on Monday to make the first announcement of three new supply ships at a cost of $2.1-billion. They will replace ships that were launched nearly 40 years ago.

Irving Shipbuilding Inc., which has its primary office at the Halifax shipyard, is part of a consortium bidding for that contract. If it wins, it could mean employment for 400 workers.

On Tuesday, the Conservatives will announce in Quebec that the government plans to buy $1.1-billion worth of trucks.

On Thursday, the final announcement of the new planes will be made at CFB Trenton in Ontario. That purchase is likely to be the most controversial, given the intensely competitive market for aircraft.

The Liberals, as well as other airplane manufacturers, have been complaining for months that the Conservatives have rigged the competition for large, strategic-lift planes to suit the Globemaster C-17s made by Boeing. In fact, the government is going to buy four of those planes at a cost of $3-billion. But other companies will be invited to submit competing tenders.

The government will also say it is going to purchase $4.6-billion worth of tactical-lift planes to replace the aging fleet of Hercules aircraft that will start becoming obsolete before the end of the decade.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060623.MILITARY23/TPStory/National
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------






INDEPTH: CANADA'S MILITARY
Military procurement
CBC News Online | June 22, 2006

For military buffs, all next week should be like Saturday morning at Canadian Tire. That's because, with Parliament having risen, Prime Minister Stephen Harper is set to announce the Conservatives' much-trumpeted plan to buy new transport aircraft, helicopters, ships and trucks for the Armed Forces.

In all, the purchase is expected to total roughly $15 billion, to be spread out over several years. And according to the CBC's French-language service Radio-Canada, Harper will unveil the plans in a series of announcements from Quebec to central Ontario to Alberta in a bid to underline the local benefits from such a massive procurement.

According to news reports and what the military has said to date about its requirements, the purchases are expected to fall into five categories:
  • Up to four heavy-lift long-range transport planes to move troops, tanks and entire hospital units halfway around the globe in one shot. Estimated cost: $3 billion.
  • Up to 17 heavy-lift, mid-range transport planes to replace Canada's aging fleet of Hercules aircraft. Estimated cost: $4.6 billion
  • A fleet of between 12 and 15 heavy-lift helicopters to move troops and supplies quickly around war zones. Estimated cost: $4.2 billion.
  • Three new troop carrier ships. Estimated cost: $2 billion.
  • Up to 1,000 new trucks for the army, likely to be built in Quebec. Estimated cost: $1.1 billion.
Of the five, the three involving planes and helicopters have so far created the most controversy.


Long-range transport planes:

This purchase is the pet project of Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor, a former brigadier-general — and former defence industry lobbyist. Because of that, and because of the way this contract is expected to be structured — in such a way that it can only be awarded to Boeing's giant Globemaster aircraft — this is the one element of the deal expected to kick up the most immediate fuss.

More than three years ago, before he became a Conservative MP, O'Connor was a defence industry lobbyist, acting for Airbus at one point. He is reportedly particularly enamoured of the Globemaster, a massive hulk that can transport entire strike teams or up to 144 soldiers with full equipment for 4,400 kilometres without refuelling, then offload its entire cargo in minutes.

Boeing's main competition, Europe's EADS/Airbus consortium, says it can supply the same number of planes with similar capabilities for $2 billion, which is considerably less than the Globemaster price. It has a drawback, though. The Airbus version is still on the drawing board and won't be in the air until 2008 at the earliest, with delivery not expected for some years after that.

Other options: A company called Skylink Aviation, which charters large aircraft for the commercial carriers and the Canadian military, says it can provide two Russian-built long-range carriers, which the Armed Forces have used in the past. According to the Skylink proposal, which was obtained by the Ottawa Citizen, Skylink has offered to lease two each of the smaller IL-76 Ilyushin and the somewhat bigger Antonov An-124 and base them at Canadian Forces Base Trenton in Ontario for the exclusive use of the Canadian military. Lease costs would be in the range of $46 million a year.

The Antonov is a well-known Clydesdale of the sky. The Canadian-American Strategic Review, a think-tank that analyzes Canadian foreign and defence policies, says the Antonov can carry a bigger load than the Globemaster, has twice the maximum cargo volume and can fly 1,500 kilometres further when fully loaded.

The Globemaster, CASR's reviewer admits, is more fun to fly and can be seen as heavy aviation's 'equivalent of the Lamborghini.'


Mid-range planes:

Called strategic and tactical aircraft, the main competitors in this category are Lockheed Martin's revamped C130J Hercules and the Airbus A400M, which is not expected to come into service before 2010.

The C103J Hercules is the new and upgraded version of the aging carrier that has served Canada's Armed Forces well over the years and also seems to be the plane of choice for the U.S. and British air forces, at least as an 'in theatre' carrier. The Brits are also upgrading and have offered to sell Canada some of their older and so-called shorter versions, which can carry heavier loads than other Hercs.

But with the public still smarting from the fiasco involving refurbished British subs – which Canada's military bought for $891 million in 1998, only to face serious electrical problems, rust and general deterioration – it is hard to see the Harper government wanting to risk its reputation on more used goods.

Canada currently has a squadron of 31 Hercs but 22 of these are more than 30 years old and nearing the end of their useful life. The new Hercules is said to be more fuel-efficient, with six propellers, up from four in the older models. Thanks to its improved electronics, it can also be piloted by a smaller crew. Its claim to fame is that it works well in battle situations — it can get in and out of difficult terrain while still carrying a pretty heavy load.

The Airbus A400M is to be Europe's answer to the Hercules but design and construction delays have hurt its order sheet and some analysts question whether it can deliver what it has promised. Its posted price of roughly $90 million US is higher than that of the Hercules, which has been listed in the range of $60 million US. But it is a bigger plane than the C103J, boasts more sophisticated engines and other avionics, and is suggested to be the next-generation plane for NATO in Europe.

A late entry into the competition is the Russian Ilyushin IL-76 Airlifter, a modernized Soviet-era freighter that is much in use today in Afghanistan, particularly by Canadian troops. The Russian planes have been listed for about $50 million US each and suppliers have reportedly told Canada they can deliver the planes directly to Kandahar within the next year. It has a carrying capacity of about 40 tonnes and a range of 5,000 kilometres when fully loaded.


Heavy-lift helicopters:

This is another controversial purchase if only because it is the main focus of Gen. Rick Hillier, the chief of defence. He wants many more of these aircraft – which are used as the taxis of the war zone to shuttle about soldiers and supplies – and fewer, if any, of the long-range transport.

Canada, for the most part, has had to beg, borrow and lease Boeing-built Chinooks from the Americans in Afghanistan to resupply its forward bases — or else risk truck convoys that are often targeted by roadside bombers. The military now wants its own dedicated fleet.

The battlefield bird of choice for Hillier (and the U.S. military), the Chinook can carry up to 44 fully equipped soldiers, land in tight places and hurl cargo from one of three distinct holds. Its main claim to fame, however, is its two large counter-spinning rotors. They enable the Chinook to continue to fly in hot, dry climates like Afghanistan's (where birds with small back rotors have difficulty, for some reason) and let it hover with only its two back wheels touching down, for quick unloading.

The main problems with the Chinook at this point are its relatively high cost and its fairly high demand all over the globe. Canada would have to take a number.

Options for the military, according to CASR, have included repainting and re-equipping Canada's new search-and-rescue helicopters, the Cormorant. They might be able to carry up to 30 soldiers but Canada would then need new search-and-rescue copters.

There could also be some sort of deal with Washington to take possession of new or newish U.S. military Chinooks while both countries wait for the updated version to come off the assembly lines.

Another proposal on the table is the Russian-built Mi-17 from MIL. It is smaller than both the Cormorant and the Chinook, with about a quarter of the carrying capacity of the Chinook, and can probably transport only about 24 or so soldiers (estimates vary).

But at a listed price of about $5 million US a bird, it costs a fraction of the Chinook and has proven itself under fire. Mi-17s moved Canadian soldiers about in the Balkans during the NATO deployment there in the early and mid-1990s. The helicopter is also much in evidence now in Afghanistan, and Canadian Forces and technical personnel are said to be very familiar with its abilities.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnmilitary/procurement.html
 
Last edited:

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
That's a lot of money! If this HAS to happen, I'd prefer the spending to occur within Canada--unless the other options are obviously preferable and cost effective, which they very well may be. And what about the JSF? We're supposed to buy a bunch of those when they come out too.

It looks as though we're suiting up for participation in future conflicts. <Not impressed>
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Currently our military doesn't really have any soviet or post soviet equipment. Buying updated late 60's soviet technology tickles my cheap bone but I get the feeling we're making a short term choice.

In both cases of the transport planes we have airbus options. I'm not so big on airbus right now, they have more orders than they can build, and they have cost overruns across their product line. Much as I don't want to support the american military arms machine I think they might be the best choice.

Although cheap ass soviet shit would be really cool.
 
tribe cannabis goldsmith - gold cannabis accessories

Big Cheese

TRIBE Member
all of the choices that the tories have made are the ideal options for the CF... air force, navy and combat arms and imho am really pleased that they are doing what they said they would do.

i understand the libs wanna nail O'Connor on this boeing thing and being a former defence lobbyist n' all; but ffs, the c-17 is the best bang for the buck and they would have ended up buying the fucking things anyways. if they were in office and their balls hit the grindstone looking for longrange strategic airlift capability, they would have gone that way anywho
 

gak

TRIBE Member
Boss Hog said:
I'd be really surprised to see him get re-elected.
You would think so living in Toronto but he seems popular in the rest of Canada...including Quebec for some reason...
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Government policy by wiki!!


wiki said:
In June 2006, Conservative defence minister Gordon O'Connor submitted to cabinet a $15 billion wishlist for the military. The list included plans to purchase up to five C-17 aircraft at an unspecified cost. It also proposes the purchase of at least 12 C-130J Hercules tactical lift aircraft, which is seen as a compromise between the minister and Chief of Defence Staff General Rick Hillier since Hillier has stated his preference of the military acquiring tactical over strategic lift aircraft.[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-17_Globemaster_III


It would appear that as much debate as we might want the wiki is already listing the purchase order!
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
gak said:
You would think so living in Toronto but he seems popular in the rest of Canada...including Quebec for some reason...
yeah unfortunately i get the same impression.

i think it may be due more to his deliberate pandering to separatist intersts on some issues (like he would for albertain interests) like increased private health care, which they are big on in quebec.
 

docta seuss

TRIBE Member
deafplayer said:
Mr. Harper will head to Edmonton on Wednesday to release the requirements for 15 new helicopters at a cost of $4.2-billion. The government is said to favour Chinooks.
[/B]
uh.. since when have helicopters cost $280,000,000 each? that's got to be an error. at that rate, you could buy an entire aircraft carrier for the cost of 2 helicopters.
 
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders

docta seuss

TRIBE Member
deafplayer said:
  • Up to four heavy-lift long-range transport planes to move troops, tanks and entire hospital units halfway around the globe in one shot. Estimated cost: $3 billion.[/B]

  • strange.. C-17's, being at the more expensive end of things, cost well under $300,000,000 per unit. (an absurdly high price for a transport)

    still, that's 1 billion for the planes, so wha? like 2 billion in maintenance contracts? :eek:
 

TrIbAlNuT

TRIBE Member
I hate harper, I hate the conservative government. But it's finally nice to see a government that cares about national defense.

The Navy,

We need these ships bad, Canada doesn't have the capability to move an infantry across the ocean. These 3 new ships will have numerous capabilities such as amphibious assault, cargo and troop transport, medivac and will carry up to 4 but most likely 2 helicopters.

Air Force.

The Hercs are falling apart. Other NATO countries send they're mechs to CFB Trenton to study how Canada keeps these birds in the air. The C-130J is a newer version of the hercs that Canada has, therefore their integration into the air force will be cost effective and relatively cheap. Forget A400M if the A380 is any indication of Airbus's ability to deliver a product on time.

The C-17 Globmaster is a great plane, I just don't see how it's productive to only have 4. If your going to have an heavy-lift fleet, you might as well buy enough planes to makes sure that you can move your brigade all at once. I think the contract with Skyaviation for the AN-124 would be the best deal for Canada.

And these Chinooks, Canada had them and sold them. There is a 2-4 year wait for new ones, the military screwed themselves buy selling them to the UK and Australia.

Overall, we had no business going to Afghanistan with our current equipment. The government realized this and is trying to remedy the situation.
 

swilly

TRIBE Member
Ditto Much said:
Although cheap ass soviet shit would be really cool.
I think in the article it said they were already using the Mi 7 in afghanistan. But ya i am with you. Why not buy some cheap russian stuff. Save money get 40 of them as opposed to 12 and it will piss of the yanks.
 
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders

TrIbAlNuT

TRIBE Member
swilly said:
I think in the article it said they were already using the Mi 7 in afghanistan. But ya i am with you. Why not buy some cheap russian stuff. Save money get 40 of them as opposed to 12 and it will piss of the yanks.
Canada will never buy Russian equipment!! They may lease it, but you will never see a Maple leaf on a russian made plane/helicopter.
 

docta seuss

TRIBE Member
Arctic sovereignty on radar: MacKay

CBC News


Ottawa is committed to enhancing its presence in the Arctic, particularly with respect to the Northwest Passage, Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay says.

He made the remarks during a visit to the Yukon on Monday where he attended a gathering of diplomats in Whitehorse.

The government recognizes more personnel will be required to protect the Northwest Passage, MacKay told reporters.

"We've committed during the election to enhance our presence here — to enhance the necessary equipment, to keep that presence real," said MacKay.

"With the Northwest Passage on many people's minds, this is going to include more personnel. Clearly how and when this occurs is part of the decision-making we are going through right now."

More aboriginal people are also going to be needed to help Canada protect its sovereignty in the Arctic, he said.

MacKay's visit to the Yukon capital coincided with news from the Defence Department that it's going to spend $2.9 billion on three new naval ships.

"We are demonstrating in actions, not just words, that we take enhanced military procurement seriously," said MacKay. "We cannot expect our men and women of the Armed Forces to be doing their important work in substandard equipment or in many cases equipment that is rusting out, that is ancient."
 

Boss Hog

TRIBE Member
gak said:
You would think so living in Toronto but he seems popular in the rest of Canada...including Quebec for some reason...

Yeah but I don't think at this rate his popularity will last. I give him the summer before he starts casting doubt from the general public.
 

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
docta seuss said:
uh.. since when have helicopters cost $280,000,000 each? that's got to be an error. at that rate, you could buy an entire aircraft carrier for the cost of 2 helicopters.
That's a good point! That could be to hide other spending--that where shit like $400 hammers come from. And actually that kind of gross over-pricing can also come from requirements that the equipment be designed and manufactured by the military from scratch, without purchasing items off-the-shelf. I think that practice is LONG gone, though.

I wanna know more about that helicopter package.

And I want a fucking helicopter, too: a Blackhawk--all matte black, with white rotar-blades and fly-ass turn table insignias on the side! And they've gotta be all suped up and shit: sound-proof interior, plasma wide-screen monitors, maxed out gaming PCs, leather seating, and all that shit. Fuck yeah!
 
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders

~atp~

TRIBE Member
SellyCat said:
And I want a fucking helicopter, too: a Blackhawk--all matte black, with white rotar-blades and fly-ass turn table insignias on the side! And they've gotta be all suped up and shit: sound-proof interior, plasma wide-screen monitors, maxed out gaming PCs, leather seating, and all that shit. Fuck yeah!
I want Semtex, a NICE high-quality shovel and a waterproof map of your geographical location.
 

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
~atp~ said:
I want Semtex, a NICE high-quality shovel and a waterproof map of your geographical location.
I lol'd at the emphasis on it being a NICE shovel...not some crappy, peice-of-shit, Canadian Tire shovel.

Look, I'll see what I can do, but for some reason, I have this gut feeling that my help in this matter could only backfire on my interests.












(And by interests, I mean my anatomy)
 

HotSauce

TRIBE Member
Anyone else here have a problem with the fact that until recently, Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor used to be a lobbyist for the arms industry?

I would have thought that even his appointment would go against Harper's whole 'ethics' platform as one of his accountability issues included a promised crackdown on lobbying and reforms to lobbying legislation.
 
Last edited:

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
HotSauce said:
Anyone else here have a problem with the fact that until recently, Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor used to be a lobbyist for the arms industry?

I would have thought that even his appointment would go against Harper's whole 'ethics' platform as one of his accountability issues included a promised crackdown on lobbying and reforms to lobbying legislation.
I think we all do. For me, this is just par for the course and comes with a conservative government, especially the North American species thereof. It's definted by a conflict of interest between the government and the private sector, while simulteneously, their ideology claims to favor rolling back the state's roll in economics. The guy being a defense lobbyist means he's got a fat Rolodex of contacts that he can squeeze for deals...and who can squeeze HIM for deals. When I think about it, there is an argument to be made for why that can be benificial, but more than anything, I think it just increases the likelihood that we might end up spending an extra $15,000,000,000 of tax revenue on military equipment that won't benefit Canadians in any way. In fact, it might directly harm the interests of Canadians to have our military involved in the new adventures made possible by our expanded capabilities.

Defense Industry: "Come on..Come ooooooon! You know you wanna buy new choppers and shit...look how friggin sweet these are! Don't you want your country to be powerful and well-equipped, or do you wanna be a bunch of gay pussy homos!?"
Defense Lobbyist Defense Minister: "Well fuck, that's a pretty pursuasive argument right there! I'll start setting deals up RIGHT AWAY; HOLY CRAP!"
 
Last edited:

HotSauce

TRIBE Member
SellyCat said:
Defense Industry: "Come on..Come ooooooon! You know you wanna buy new choppers and shit...look how friggin sweet these are! Don't you want your country to be powerful and well-equipped, or do you wanna be a bunch of gay pussy homos!?"
Defense Lobbyist Defense Minister: "Well fuck, that's a pretty pursuasive argument right there! I'll start setting deals up RIGHT AWAY; HOLY CRAP!"
You forgot to add

Defense Lobbyist Defense Minister:Oh, and just wire the you know what, *wink, wink*, to my cayman islands bank acct.
 
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders
Top