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Old 01-22-2002, 12:06 PM   #1
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pussy palace ruling

For immediate release
Media Advisory

Historic Gay Rights Court Decision:
Ruling on Women’s Bathhouse Charges

On Thursday January 31st the organizers of the Pussy Palace Women’s Bathhouse will return to court to receive judgment on an application to stay proceedings. Frank Addario, the lawyer for the 2 women accused of violating the Ontario Liquor License Act moved to have the charges stayed in hearings
in October and November. He argued that the Toronto Police Services (TPS) violated the women’s rights under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, when they raided the Women’s Bathhouse in September 2000.

On the night of the event, five male plainclothes police officers spent over an hour and a half searching the premises of the women’s bathhouse. In the year since the raid, the organizers have been sharply critical of the actions of the police. Likewise, Toronto’s queer community responded with anger and outrage to the raid. The use of male police officers to enter and search the premises occupied by nude and partially clothed women, casts
serious doubt on the sincerity of TPS’s efforts to foster better relationships with the queer community.

Friends and allies are invited to join in solidarity with the accused by attending the proceedings. Committee members will congregate in the foyer of old city hall and lead people into the courtroom at 10am on the morning of January 31st.


Women’s Bathhouse Trial (final day)

Where: Old City Hall, Courtroom to be announced
When: 10:00 am, Thursday, January 31st


Media Conference by Women’s Bathhouse Organizers

Where: New City Hall, Member's lounge
When: 2:00 pm, Thursday, January 31st
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Old 01-22-2002, 12:08 PM   #2
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So, what were the cop's reasons for raiding the place?
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Old 01-22-2002, 12:10 PM   #3
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thanks jane.

Rob, if I'm not mistaken, they were supposedly investigaing possible liquor license violations. But it was essentially a pantie raid by a bunch of horny cops.

Pete
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Old 01-22-2002, 12:16 PM   #4
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oh i would so love to be able to attend and glare at some people.. ggrr!

its too bad i have to work though. fuckers.

jane please keep us up to date about this... thanks.
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Old 01-22-2002, 12:16 PM   #5
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by janiecakes:
Frank Addario, the lawyer for the 2 women accused of violating the Ontario Liquor License Act moved to have the charges stayed in hearings in October and November. He argued that the Toronto Police Services (TPS) violated the women’s rights under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, when they raided the Women’s Bathhouse in September 2000.</font>
jane, do you know which charter rights/freedoms were allegedly violated?

it's not clear from that press release.

(i.e. are they arguing that the raid was improper because the police did not have a proper warrant, or that the warrant was obtained through profiling or lack of sufficient evidence, or that the warrant was executed improperly because the officers were male and not female ... what's the deal?)

they would have more success attracting civil rights supporters - and not just pro-gay / anti-police ppl - if they explained their constitutional argument better.
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Old 01-22-2002, 12:23 PM   #6
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will, all i could find is that the lawyer is arguing that the women's constitutional rights were violated when the police were collecting evidence in the bathhouse the night of the raid, because of the presence of male police officers.

apparently the officer in charge of this was also responsible for the bijou raids, and the shutting down of the nude dances at the barn. there's been speculation that there is drama in cop-ville because he was acting without the ok from fantino. but that's just speculation, i don't know how much truth there is in that.
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Old 01-22-2002, 12:26 PM   #7
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Klubmasta Will:
they would have more success attracting civil rights supporters - and not just pro-gay / anti-police ppl - if they explained their constitutional argument better.</font>
you're probably right, but i don't think they're hurting for support right now.

even the media has been pretty supportive of the gals who got charged.
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Old 01-22-2002, 12:32 PM   #8
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Well what's the deal.. isn't the 'bathhouse' title essentiaelly a guise for a place to go where open sex occurs?

In which case it's illegal? Is it not?

Just like the 'Massage Spa' is a guise for a rub'n'tug?

-OTIS
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Old 01-22-2002, 12:33 PM   #9
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if things are slow and you need to look like you're doing something for society, just bust into a party and arrest a bunch of drugged up kids, charge the promoters and take all their money, or just get yourself to a bathhouse and arrest a bunch of gay people performing random sex acts on each other in a public place. later on, mumble some shit about suspecting liquor license offenses to satisfy just cause for doing so.

we have to look at the bigger picture here. if it's ok to allow people to get naked and fuck in a public place, it should be as ok to make ALL people exempt from crimes of indecency. as long as you let fat drunken rhythmless straight white people strip down and bang their brains out on the dancefloor of joker nightclub without charging them, it's ok to let lesbians get it on inside a suped up bathhouse/lounge/social club type situation (whether the lesbians are hot or not should not make a difference: equal is equal!)

-7-
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Old 01-22-2002, 12:47 PM   #10
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otis, in bathhouses there are these little cubicle room type things you can go in to have sex. legally they're considered private places.

noone is going to be ridiculous and say that those little cubicle dealies are the only places people get down in bathhouses, but police haven't raided any of the bathhouses (and there are quite a few) in toronto since the early 80's. i guess it's a bit of a grey area.

i think that the last time they raided a bathhouse (cops ripped doors off the hinges and smashed windows and arrested almost 300 people in club toronto) there were demos downtown with thousands of queers running around getting all jiggy about it.
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:16 PM   #11
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Looking at things from a socio-moral perspective, I'm kinda on the fence about this...

On one hand, Bathhouses & Massage Spas should be all shut down alike, gay straight or whatever.. they facilitate crime, and, especially with the spas, dirty the streets up with thier neon-fluorescant road signs.

Then on the other hand, I'd rather some perv be in a massage parlor getting a hand shag by some latvian exchange student, then out on the streets possibly prowling for a sexual hit.

But isn't that the whole reason for strip joints? Having a legal sex bar that stays within moral standards of decency, while providing a service to the sexualy depraved & deprived?

Well?

-OTIS
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:19 PM   #12
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don't get me started.....fucking, pig fucking stupid, racist, homophobic, facist, fucks parading around calling themselves fucking police fucking officers. they're a disgrace to an already immoral and disgusting profession, the lowest of the fucking low.



long story short: a 15 year veteren of 52 division told me that there was an unofficial organization of police officers who had made it their mission to harass and persecute the queer community. to him that was a big laugh.



&lt;--- not gay, just wants his old job back.
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:21 PM   #13
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also, I think as a society, we should definitely pass laws, or at least turn a blind eye regarding VIP/private rooms in strip clubs that are used for the purpose of full-on fucking. also, we should find a way to legitimatimize full-blown orgies in the open areas of the club. not only would this be highly lucrative for the club owners re: liquour sales and cover in a place where open /public sex is allowed, it would also negate the threat/risk of the club being busted and eventually shut down for indecency issues. this has all kinds of positive implications for all of humankind.

and on a next, next, next, next level tip, keeping shifty, dirty strip clubs open is integral to my heterosexual culture and no fuckin' pigs are gonna stop me from expressing myself and who I am as a person by telling me when/where/how I should fuck!

-7-
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by OTIS:
But isn't that the whole reason for strip joints? Having a legal sex bar that stays within moral standards of decency, while providing a service to the sexualy depraved & deprived?
</font>
Dude don't get me started...

You should join the Concerned Parents Foundation. And maybe do some community service at the cop station.. and after that, drop by a bathhouse and "document the crime" that goes on in there
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:25 PM   #15
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otis, i think that rub and tugs are pretty different from bathhouses.

in a rub & tug you have money exchanging hands for a sexual service.

in a bathhouse you have people having sex for fun, not money. (other than the odd hustler i guess)

that's a pretty big distinction, given prostitution laws and stuff.

anyway, i'm not against public sex in general, i don't see any reason for laws to be in place that tell people they shouldn't boink if anyone else is watching. ESPECIALLY in places like bathhouses.

se7en, there are already private clubs in toronto where you can go to have group sex, you don't need to pass any laws legitimizing it.
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:26 PM   #16
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by t-boy:
Dude don't get me started...

You should join the Concerned Parents Foundation. And maybe do some community service at the cop station.. and after that, drop by a bathhouse and "document the crime" that goes on in there
</font>

Dude, just cuz that was my last point doesn't mean it was my whole point.

If you notice, I posted a few there to generate some discussion.. not flames.
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:28 PM   #17
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by OTIS:
On one hand, Bathhouses & Massage Spas should be all shut down alike, gay straight or whatever.. they facilitate crime</font>
what kind of crime?
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:34 PM   #18
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by janiecakes:

in a bathhouse you have people having sex for fun, not money.
</font>
But surely there is some cover charge, and it's a publicly owned business, meaning it's obligated to abide by decency laws of public property, is it not?

-OTIS

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Old 01-22-2002, 01:35 PM   #19
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people should be able to boink wherever the fuck they want. just like how the breastfeeding thing works now.

-7-
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:40 PM   #20
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by OTIS:
But surely there is some cover charge, and it's a publicly owned business, meaning it's obligated to abide by decency laws of public property, is it not?
</font>
yes there is a cover charge, but it's not straight up prostitution. the owners of the club aren't panking anyone for money. the patrons are panking each other for fun.

like i said earlier in the thread, a cubicle with a closed door is considered private space. you can do whatever you want in there. cops have been allowing men to have sex openly in bathhouses without raiding them for 20 years.
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:41 PM   #21
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by janiecakes:
the owners </font>
should say the owners or the employees...
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:42 PM   #22
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by janiecakes:
what kind of crime?</font>
Surely you're not that naive, massage spas facilitate prostitution, last I checked, prostitution was illegal. Bathhouses I figure fall into the same category, although I've never heard much of them before (except through a southpark episode) I kinda get the just of what theyre all about.

I've never been to either, the idea just doesn't appeal to me. Janie have you been to a bathhouse? Or is this strictly a gay-bashing issue for you?

-OTIS
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:44 PM   #23
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tell that to george michael. I guess when you're a gay celebrity, cops will pick on you. because of the celebrity part, not the gay part.

-7-
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:47 PM   #24
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naive? i wasn't arguing with you. i was just asking you what you meant.

i don't know too much about those massage spa things, but you're right about some prostitution going on at queer bathhouses. there's some hustling and some drug dealing, but i don't really know how much goes down. i don't have much beef with prostitution either, so that's not a big concern for me.

i wasn't at the pussy palace bathhouse that got raided, but i was at the one before that.
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Old 01-22-2002, 01:49 PM   #25
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when i mentioned the hustling at queer bathhouses, i was talking about male bathhouses, i'd be really surprised if there were any women at pussy palace paying for sex, since that whole hustler thing is more of a gay boy think than a gay girl thing.
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