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Old 01-22-2002, 03:30 PM   #51
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Ditto Much,

I think that the cops did it to antagonize the patrons as much as they did it to ogle them.

but i could be wrong.
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Old 01-22-2002, 03:31 PM   #52
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I know from applying for liquor permits for past TRIBE events that when you sign the permit documents you basically give the liq board and the po lice a 'get in free card' to come and visit you to do an inspection.

So I don't think that illegal search thing will work for them (If they were using a special event permit).

That being said, I am all for naked women who hang out in cubicles (if that's what they want to do) so I wish them the best of luck with their case.
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Old 01-22-2002, 03:44 PM   #53
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Booty Bits:
I think that the cops did it to antagonize the patrons as much as they did it to ogle them.
</font>

This is somewhat difficult to prove. You'd have to prove that the search warrent was invalid (thus there should never have been a serach). Or that it was executed in an unlawful mannor. This is a hard one to prove!!!

I'm willing to agree that the specifics of the Liquor charges are totally irrelivent. However that actual search as AlexD pointed out is completely ligit. If you sell alcohol the police have a right to check it out. If your breaking the rules under which you are able to sell alcohol the police have a right to investigate. The simplist way to investigate is to ask everyone for the names and contact info. Naked women obviously wouldn't have pockets and thus would not have propper ID.

Thus the police would need to take some time to gather this information. Nobody was charged with regards to any indecent acts. The women who were naked and didn't have coverings easily availible to them did so of they're own free will. They were at a public bathhouse.

Does the gender of the police officer make a difference? If it does than does the sexual orientation of the police officer make a difference.


Again I personally have no issues with bathhouses', or with them serving alcohol. Women men whatever its there own business and not mine. However if its a question of whether the search is legal or not it really has to be somewhat gender neutral or the issue is going to have some large ramifications.
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Old 01-22-2002, 03:44 PM   #54
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i'm sure the cops had a proper warrant so, from that aspect, the search must have been "legal". the argument that the police were ogling the naked women sounds a bit absurd to be honest ... what, did the women just sit there, forget to cover up and continue on with their business after the police rushed in?

if i had to guess, i would assume the charter argument (referred to in the initial press release) is an argument based on 'profiling' - i.e. unfair targetting of a community and the use of negative stereotype in place of actual evidence.
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Old 01-22-2002, 04:10 PM   #55
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Klubmasta Will:
...what, did the women just sit there, forget to cover up and continue on with their business after the police rushed in?
...
</font>
Took the words outta my mouth.
I find it hard to believe they were just sitting there naked and there was no offer to "get dressed" or "cover up", sheesh.

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Old 01-22-2002, 06:07 PM   #56
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in answer to someone's earlier question about whether the private rooms were searched, and just to give a bit more info on what happened here is part of the info bulletin that the organizers of the event released just after the raid:

"On the night of the event (Thursday, September 14), at approximately 1 am, five male plain clothes police officers entered the bathhouse. With no warning, they proceeded to search every public area in the bathhouse. Many women were topless, and organizers were not allowed to warn women before the large and intimidating men roamed the building. The police knew that this was a women-only event and they knew that women would be in various stages of undress. Despite this they chose to send male rather than female officers. We do not understand why the Toronto police force felt that they needed to send five large male officers to ensure that we were complying with liquor license regulations. After a thorough search of the house, the officers exited the building. Without warning or provocation, three officers returned to the bathhouse and proceeded to search private rooms. At one point officers lingered in a room for 20 minutes questioning the two women inside. In another woman's room the officers questioned a woman and attempted to look through her personal belongings until she objected, at which point they desisted. They proceeded to the foyer of the bathhouse and began to aggressively question the head of security, volunteers and a committee member. At this point, we stated that we did not want to answer any more questions until we had a lawyer present. Many women at the event were deeply angered and traumatized by the police raid and some of them chose to leave at that point. The police spent an hour and a half at the event: they searched the premises from 12:45 to 2:15 a.m.

The police actions on Thursday September 14, are another example of the long-standing police harassment of the lesbian, gay, bi and trans communities. The laws regulating sex and public nudity are unclear and inconsistently enforced. This is a disturbing instance of homophobic police harassment and seriously draws into question the sincerity of the police as they claim to be building bridges with the lesbian, gay, bi and trans communities."

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Old 01-22-2002, 06:08 PM   #57
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ditto Much:

Does the gender of the police officer make a difference? If it does than does the sexual orientation of the police officer make a difference.
</font>
it makes a difference because it was a women only event.
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:13 PM   #58
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It's actually called Pussy palace?!? LOL
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:14 PM   #59
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by janiecakes:
it makes a difference because it was a women only event.</font>
It does if they argue their case from a gender/sexual preference profiling descrimination standpoint.

-OTIS
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:14 PM   #60
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Klubmasta Will:
i'm sure the cops had a proper warrant so, from that aspect, the search must have been "legal". the argument that the police were ogling the naked women sounds a bit absurd to be honest ... what, did the women just sit there, forget to cover up and continue on with their business after the police rushed in?
</font>
i don't know that cops even need a warrant to check up on liquor license type stuff.

also, the organizers haven't said that cops were 'ogling' naked women, that was me sitting here being mouthy. however, the fact remains that five male officers went into a place where a bunch of naked and partially naked women were getting down INCLUDING the private rooms people were using for sex.

anyway, it's not being presented as an 'illegal search' type scenario exactly, they're saying that the police should have sent female officers, that the investigation wasn't consistent with the way special occasion liquor permits are usually handled, that the cops stayed in the place longer than necessary, and that kind of thing.
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:18 PM   #61
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Klubmasta Will:
what, did the women just sit there, forget to cover up and continue on with their business after the police rushed in?
</font>
i doubt anyone continued with 'their business' but most people check some or all of their clothes so a lot of women had nothing other than a towel to cover up with.
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:25 PM   #62
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You know how when you go to a club they send girls to the female bouncer for searching? they do likewise when you're sent to the drunk tank (don't ask me how I know...) It is protocol to have female officers conducting any physically intimate dealings with the public. They broke protocol.

I was at this Pussy Palace, and let me assure you there was no 'crime', no hustling, nothing like that. In fact,t he thought of hustling at a womens bath-house makes me laugh. I generally hate to generalize, but lesbians just don't DO that. In fact, I left before the police got there because I was bored. I like sex, I like watching sex, but there was none to be seen int he open areas at least. Also, they were being strict about the liquor regulations--another incentive to drive me away was that you couldn't drink outside and you couldn't smoke inside (I really need to have both together!) If some drunk dykes slipped past the watchdogs and drank where they weren't supposed to, then it certainly wasn't the failing of the establishment, not from what I saw. Granted, establishments can be held responsible for such things these days, and if it was as simple as that, they'd pay the silly fine.

Club Toronto is a male bath house. You can go there, if you're male, any time of the week, and get into much dirtier deeds than at the Pussy Palace--I only know second hand, of course, but I hear that hustling as well as drugs, both actually illegal activities are pretty flagrant at gay male bath houses. These never get busted, but in come the lesbians, and in come the police. not only do they come in, fully clothed and male, but they don't let the establishers turn on the lights, warn people, etc. they wander around, taking in the sights, adn when they finally do stop people to interview them, they don't necessarily let them go get their clothes and ID.

If this is not technically illegal, it certainly should be.

D.

PS--Rosey--you're very angry, and for some reason this issue reminds you of your old job... certainly you didn't work at a bath house?!
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:33 PM   #63
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yay Lysistrata!

rosey worked at one of the u of t bars where they used to have the homo hop i think.
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:33 PM   #64
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rosey's mad because some homophobic cops shut down the Homo Hop that used to take place at the U of T bar he worked at.


as for the charter argument, there was a male prisoner who tried to bring a charter case against some female prison guards because they would walk past the stalls of male prisoners when they were partially nude, strip search them etc etc...
and the prisoner lost his case...

however the arguments in the judges' rulings would make me think that the Pussy Palace organizers have a case.
the judges seemed to think that his case did not have merit because he was a big, strong guy and the guards could not reasonably appear to be a threat to him.
i can see how the flipside of that argument could work in the organizers' favour in the bath-house case.
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:34 PM   #65
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janiecakes...
get outta my head!

or rosey's for that matter.
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:40 PM   #66
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'squeeze me but janiecakes I just read your mail...do you have icq or messenger? mental telepathy? we need to dialogue.

my icq is in my profile, messenger you can just use my email addy...and if you have mental telepathy I am thinking of number right now, what might it me?
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:40 PM   #67
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Ok so there's a statement from the organizers.
What about the statement from the police?
The statement from the organizers sounds pretty one sided (or course):
"...five large male officers..."
- when's the last time we saw a small male officer in Toronto??
"...another example of the long-standing police harassment of the lesbian, gay, bi and trans communities..."
- really? If it's such a big issue, why isn't the rest of the city as upset?
"...traumatized..."
- sounds like lawyer jargon.
"...With no warning..."
- duh, it's a raid...
"...Despite this they chose to send male rather than female officers"
- So WHAT??? If I get pulled over by a woman cop in my swim suit, do you think I'm going to ignore her because she's a woman??? Am I going to get upset because she "looked" at me funny? She's a COP with the same powers as a MAN. A cop is a cop. They were there for a reason.

This whole thing is blowed WAY out of proportion and is trying to fit an old arguement. It's totally transparent and hope it never sees the light of day in court.
I don't say this because I'm against gay or lesbian people; I'm being totally unbiased in this.
After reading that 'statement' I can't help but think they might as well been aliens.
Besides, I still haven't seen any statement from the other side of coin.
Kinda hard to make an intelligent decision without ALL the facts.
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:44 PM   #68
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tonedeff, is it 4?

i don't have msn or icq...

just shoot me back an email STAT!

(or i'll fist you)
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:45 PM   #69
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janiecakes, thanks so much for explaining everything in detail.. i've asked a few people as to what exactly happened there, and up till now didn't have the full story from the patrons' view.

fir3start3r, triple shit on you, and cum in your eye
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:51 PM   #70
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fir3start3r:
Ok so there's a statement from the organizers.
What about the statement from the police?
</font>
they are declining to comment.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
"...another example of the long-standing police harassment of the lesbian, gay, bi and trans communities..."
- really? If it's such a big issue, why isn't the rest of the city as upset?</font>
actually, the 'straight media' (ie. non queer newspapers & stuff, i couldn't think of another way to put it) have been generally supportive of the organizers.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">"...With no warning..."
- duh, it's a raid...</font>
actually, it was supposedly an investigation into liquor license violations. there was no need to stop people from warning the other women to cover up, which the police did.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I'm being totally unbiased in this.
</font>
ok there mr. i have nothing against minorities but they whine a lot.
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:51 PM   #71
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by t-boy:
janiecakes, thanks so much for explaining everything in detail.. i've asked a few people as to what exactly happened there, and up till now didn't have the full story from the patrons' view.

fir3start3r, triple shit on you, and cum in your eye
</font>
Wow...I guess we're all cop haters then...I see...
Hey, if you feel like you have to call me names because I play little devil's advocate, then sorry.
But you won't drag me into your name calling...
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Old 01-22-2002, 06:55 PM   #72
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oh stop acting like a whiney mexican fag
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Old 01-22-2002, 07:07 PM   #73
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by janiecakes:
tonedeff, is it 4?</font>
not even close, guess I should have told you that when I think of numbers they are never integers...I have more of a fractional imagination.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">

i don't have msn or icq...

just shoot me back an email STAT!

(or i'll fist you)</font>
done

but I'll take the fisting anyway STAT!

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Old 01-22-2002, 07:12 PM   #74
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fir3start3r:
Hey, if you feel like you have to call me names because I play little devil's advocate, then sorry.
But you won't drag me into your name calling...
</font>
Actually I didn't call you ANY names. Look back at my post and you will see that... hey, just playing devil's advocate.

Its not a matter of hating cops. I don't hate cops, but the actions and opinions of majority of the police officers do piss the fucking hell out of me. You are starting to fall in that same compartment in my brain.

Also, pushing the conservative right-wing tip isn't being devil's advocate. Its called broken record. If you really feel like you've contributed "the other side of the coin" here, pat yourself on the back.
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Old 01-22-2002, 07:16 PM   #75
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janiecakes. dear.
If you're going to present an arguement to people who have no idea what your talking about don't give them one side.
I'm not just talking about this incident.
Just because you haven't convinced me (or others I'm sure) what this is all about doesn't mean I'm an idiot.
In fact, since you piqued my curiousity about this subject I found something I was looking for (hoping you could explain it a little better since you posted this).
It's actually from NOW Magazine and NOW I see what it is you've been trying to say.
http://www.nowtoronto.com/issues/200...newsfront.html
I'm sorry you feel the way you do, I have nothing against you. Never did.
You obviously have strong feelings for this subject (that's quite clear) and hope everything works out the way you'd like.
Peace,
Jeff
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