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Racism in Canda Towards Native Canadians

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Old 01-24-2002, 01:34 PM   #101
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this thread has gone to teh idoits
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Old 01-24-2002, 01:37 PM   #102
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ditto Much:

NO!!!!!!!!


ITS NATIVE LAND AND THEY CONTROL IT.

It was the atitude that it was government land that started the whole problem in the first place. Native land is not under the same administation as the rest of the country. They have there own authority and they have there own justice, education and social policy.

</font>

Last time I checked it was still the RCMP dishing out 'authority' & 'justice'. Most of time it's some white cop from toronto who got forced into taking the district because he was bad or is fresh on the force.
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Old 01-24-2002, 01:42 PM   #103
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kodos:
this thread has gone to teh idoits </font>
HA!
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Old 01-24-2002, 01:46 PM   #104
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after reading this thread again, I realized that some of you are pretty damn ignorant.
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Old 01-24-2002, 01:48 PM   #105
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ditto Much:
Wow really how did I insult you so much with what I wrote. Are you sure I'm being so rude in what I'm saying. Please read back over what I'm saying.
... Have I personally wronged you?
</font>
Same thing in your email...

Your post was lowbrow and ignorant. Somehow you thought it would be 'intellectual', 'whitty' or some shit like that I guess. Sometimes you should just state what it is you are trying to say instead of trying to be so fucking cute about it.

I have been thru it all and back again a million times as a young black man and I still can't believe how people treat natives all over the world. Your post was simply beneath any form of intelligence you may have. So I thought you should know in my own 'intellectual' and 'whitty' way.
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Old 01-24-2002, 01:55 PM   #106
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ditto Much:
- Free university educations
- No income taxes
- No property tax
- No CPP contributions
- No EI contributions
- No fuel tax
- No alccohol tax
- No liquor tax
- Rights to hunt and fish to fill there own needs regardless of season.

What else do they want?

</font>
actually i think the only thing they really want is the right to truely own their land and to be able to govern themselves. all these other things are the back up requests. it's sort of like asking: if you're gonna totally fuck us over, make it so we can't hold jobs on the reserve or outside the reserve, you should at least give us some economic breaks so that we can at least survive.

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Old 01-24-2002, 01:56 PM   #107
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by fleaflo:
Same thing in your email...

Your post was lowbrow and ignorant. Somehow you thought it would be 'intellectual', 'whitty' or some shit like that I guess. Sometimes you should just state what it is you are trying to say instead of trying to be so fucking cute about it.

I have been thru it all and back again a million times as a young black man and I still can't believe how people treat natives all over the world. Your post was simply beneath any form of intelligence you may have. So I thought you should know in my own 'intellectual' and 'whitty' way.
</font>

Again other than the line

"What else do they want?"

I don't see anything that can be considered lowbrow or ignorant in what I said. I did however post some simple facts. I'm also it seems the only one in this thread who believes in there own self determination as a culture and who doesn't believe in our interferance in there affairs.

So please explain the error of my way or I can't correct it.


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Old 01-24-2002, 01:59 PM   #108
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ditto Much:
Again other than the line

"What else do they want?"

I don't see anything that can be considered lowbrow or ignorant in what I said. I did however post some simple facts. I'm also it seems the only one in this thread who believes in there own self determination as a culture and who doesn't believe in our interferance in there affairs.

So please explain the error of my way or I can't correct it.

</font>
It isn't necessarily only a matter of "what they want", it's also about "what do they need"....

Fuck! Let them eat cake!
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:07 PM   #109
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ditto Much:

Again other than the line

"What else do they want?"

I don't see anything that can be considered lowbrow or ignorant in what I said. I did however post some simple facts. I'm also it seems the only one in this thread who believes in there own self determination as a culture and who doesn't believe in our interferance in there affairs.

So please explain the error of my way or I can't correct it.

</font>
You sound like Dubya saying, "But.. but.. the rest of my speech was good. Only that one sentence had the word paki in it."

You also seem to think that offering assistance equates to interfering. What do you propose we do, just cut all ties and ignore each others existence? We're going to have to continue being next door neighbors. If I help my next door neighbor build an addition on his house or let his kids come over to my house to do school work on the web, am I interfering with his family?
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:16 PM   #110
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ditto Much:
- Free university educations
- No income taxes
- No property tax
- No CPP contributions
- No EI contributions
- No fuel tax
- No alccohol tax
- No liquor tax
- Rights to hunt and fish to fill there own needs regardless of season.

What else do they want?

</font>
first of all i do have to pay income tax unless i want to work on the reserve but there is some 68- 70 percent unemployment , and i do pay liquor taxes as well as alcohal and i pay CPP and EI and the reason why we dont pay proprerty taxes is because we are not allowed to own anyland. furthermore i can only get tax free gas on the reserve so even that is difficult.
ignorance is bliss i belive is the saying
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:23 PM   #111
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Subsonic Chronic:
Respect?</font>
Respect can't be given...it's earned
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:24 PM   #112
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by swilly:
first of all i do have to pay income tax unless i want to work on the reserve but there is some 68- 70 percent unemployment , and i do pay liquor taxes as well as alcohal and i pay CPP and EI and the reason why we dont pay proprerty taxes is because we are not allowed to own anyland. furthermore i can only get tax free gas on the reserve so even that is difficult.
ignorance is bliss i belive is the saying
swilly
</font>
That's what I'm talkin 'bout.
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:25 PM   #113
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fir3start3r:
Respect can't be given...it's earned</font>

which is a little hard to do if no one will give you the time of day.
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:27 PM   #114
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fir3start3r:
Respect can't be given...it's earned</font>
How do you earn it?

Stealing land? Failing to honour your commitments? Violating UN resolutions, re: the abolishment of colonialism?

No that's not it... Residential schools? Gender biased "status" systems?

How? Huh?

What about enduring abuse for a couple centuries. That gets my vote.
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:28 PM   #115
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fir3start3r:
Respect can't be given...it's earned</font>
are you saying that native canadians haven't earned anyone's respect?
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:28 PM   #116
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Here is another interesting point when my mother was a child the medicine man from wabaqeschuk came to our village to perfrom a ceremony to help my sick grandfather. only a few minutes into the ceremony the police came and arrested him for disturbing the peace. how many other cultures can u think of people being arrested for religous rites i dont see anybody getting arrested at a bar mitzvah or even confirmation. Not to mention this hasnt stopped only several weeks ago they arrested this medicine man who came to my village from Peru and he is accusesd of murder because he helped and old lady in pain by making a traditional medicine for her which easded her pain. she died a week later but now the police are accusing him of killing her not even considering the fact that she was already dying to begin with. we can talk about the fact that we cant undo the past but Howabout we DONT REPEAT THE PAST because this seems to be just a repreat of what happended to the old medicine man from wabaqeschuk
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:29 PM   #117
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by swilly:
first of all i do have to pay income tax unless i want to work on the reserve but there is some 68- 70 percent unemployment , and i do pay liquor taxes as well as alcohal and i pay CPP and EI and the reason why we dont pay proprerty taxes is because we are not allowed to own anyland. furthermore i can only get tax free gas on the reserve so even that is difficult.
ignorance is bliss i belive is the saying
swilly
</font>

No by choosing to not be on the reserve your choosing to be part of our society. Thus you agree to participate in our tax system and you chose to participate in our social programs. You can chose to own property and thus pay property tax by doing it in our society.

However it was your own choice to not parecel your land for private ownership. The territories belong to the band and not the individual. And if you chose not to promote industry in your own communities by staying in them what can we do. We can't force you to stay on the reserves thats wrong. We can't just place our industries on your land as that would also be wrong. Part of self governing which is the ultimate goal is that these issues have to be faced by your own society. Otherwise we're forever going to be condesending parents.

I personally want to see native self government not just token measures of it. If we involve ourselves in industry and we invovled ourselves in health and we involve ourselves in education we're not letting you run your own affairs. We're just being condesending. You have special rights when your in our society because of the debt we owe you. But on your territoy you must administer your own rights or we're just extending our society into your again.

For there to be freedom there must also be a chance to make mistakes and for things to not have a storybook ending.
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:37 PM   #118
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in geography we have learned that almost every city or rural town has had some sort of impetus for its development be it transportation or farming or even mining or some other form of natural resource extraction. however the locational decsions of the government were based on giving us the worst and least valuable land. when we now try to start industry there what are we expected to do there are no resources we are located far from the infrastructure banks wont lend us money and our labor force is unskilled. unlike landed immigrants who have to oppurtunity to move to one of major metroploitan areas and have access to all the advantages that the core of the country provides this option is not as easily available for us of native decent. This i hope should clear up why there are no bussiness or manufacturing on many reserves
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:40 PM   #119
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ditto Much:

No by choosing to not be on the reserve your choosing to be part of our society. Thus you agree to participate in our tax system and you chose to participate in our social programs. You can chose to own property and thus pay property tax by doing it in our society.

.....

For there to be freedom there must also be a chance to make mistakes and for things to not have a storybook ending.
</font>
can't argue with that.
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:41 PM   #120
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i say give them back mississauga
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:42 PM   #121
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by swilly:
Here is another interesting point when my mother was a child the medicine man from wabaqeschuk came to our village to perfrom a ceremony to help my sick grandfather. only a few minutes into the ceremony the police came and arrested him for disturbing the peace.</font>
This was clearly wrong we shouldn't have interfeared in what was clearly none of our business. Another item that given a time machine we would love to go back and change but we simply can't.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
only several weeks ago they arrested this medicine man who came to my village from Peru and he is accusesd of murder because he helped and old lady in pain by making a traditional medicine for her which easded her pain. she died a week later but now the police are accusing him of killing her not even considering the fact that she was already dying to begin with. we can talk about the fact that we cant undo the past but Howabout we DONT REPEAT THE PAST because this seems to be just a repreat of what happended to the old medicine man from wabaqeschuk
swilly
</font>

I personally agree with euthenasia. Charges are laid in the same way that an aquastion is made. The man is still inocent until he is found guilty. And his determination of guilt (and susequently punsihment if found guilty) must be determined by the band council and by there justice system. If however the ceremony occured off of the reserve it is in our legal jurisdiction and we must do this.


I don't have any specific detail on this event, and I'm going to assume that there are many damning examples of where we do wrong. We must try to correct these as much as possible, but in our system an aquastion or charge does not in anyway infer any guilt of any crime. You are inocent until you are proven guilty.

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Old 01-24-2002, 02:42 PM   #122
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 416:
How do you earn it?

Stealing land? Failing to honour your commitments? Violating UN resolutions, re: the abolishment of colonialism?

No that's not it... Residential schools? Gender biased "status" systems?

How? Huh?

What about enduring abuse for a couple centuries. That gets my vote.
</font>
it would seem to me based on your comments about the gender baised status system that you are informed about the lavell case in which Mrs jeanette Lavell lost her native status because she married a white man. I would therefore presume that you also know how she took the case to the supreme court of canada. well my real name is william Lavell and jeanette Lavell is my mother and the white man was my father David.
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:52 PM   #123
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i think the point is, that any native could, theoretically, leave the reserve, move to toronto and start at the bottom like anybody else can.

i think, ultimately, that the reserves are a trap and a dead end, for the very reasons that swilly mentioned.
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Old 01-24-2002, 02:53 PM   #124
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by swilly:
it would seem to me based on your comments about the gender baised status system that you are informed about the lavell case in which Mrs jeanette Lavell lost her native status because she married a white man. I would therefore presume that you also know how she took the case to the supreme court of canada. well my real name is william Lavell and jeanette Lavell is my mother and the white man was my father David.
swilly
</font>
Did she win? Was her status returned to her and to you as her child.

If it was realize that this is how we corredct our mistakes. We make them and then we take them to court and if the court needs to create the law or change a law to be appropraite this is where its done. Thus the same rule applies for all native women who marry and not just for your mother.

I feel bad that in our system everytime it seems that the burden of proof seems to fall on your people. Rarely do we fight to remove a right we reomve it first and then here the argument as to why we're wrong. This I personally do disagree with. Unfortunately though this is also how we develop new laws and define what are the criteria for ones rights.

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Old 01-24-2002, 02:58 PM   #125
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Ya, I know a little bit about Bill C-31.

Are you serious? That was your parents or are you just fucking with me?

I guess I'll just save Ditto Much the time and respond to your Mom's case.

"blah blah blah ass talk ass talk ass talk... I'd love to have a time machine and travel back to the 70s and resolve the question of indian status, but I can't, so your Mom is going to have to like the fact that she had to spend years in court to ensure that her rights where no longer violated"

The nice thing about all of Ditto Much's replies are that they allow us to completely discard any responsibility we have for our disgusting behaviour. While at the same time demanding that other, less fortunate people whom we have perpetrated countless evil acts against take some sort of responsibility for a situation they didn't choose.

Then he starts implying that to avoid poverty and the conditions of the reserve, they should just come on down to Toronto and assimilate into our system. Completely discard their culture, and absorb and alien, and I'm sure in their eyes, enemy culture.

You're fucked up dude. Just fucked.

I can't beleive you complain about something as trivial as fishing rights of a civilization who has been raped and cheated countless times in the name of land and money.

You disgust me.
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