Discussion in 'TRIBE Main Forum' started by swilly, Jan 23, 2002.
And further more.
Aside from the bantering in this thread, I feel like I've participated in intelligent conversation here. Thank you.
and that's what makes you special, mingstar - that percieved notion of intelligence
Why because I believe in native self determination and governing.
Is it because I don't believe that its possible to undo our past mistakes. I'm not denying the past mistakes of the Canadian Society, I don't even try to down play their role in the problem. But I see no reason in defending something I disagree with, and I don't see how benifit can come from degrading either culture.
I'm well aware of many of the things that the Canadian society has done wrong. I can sympathise for the hardship that this has caused. But I can no more make up for these mistakes than I can change make ignorant people change there views.
I can ask my politicians stance on issues before I vote. I can petition my governing body when I feel they have made an icorrect choice. I can tell someone who makes a racist comment that what they said was wrong and not appreciated. But I can't for the life of me stop them from repeating this mistake.
If this disgusts you please feel free to reply why. I will try to answer any aquastions direct at me as to what I have done wrong and offer any appologies that are necessary. I can answer to my own faults and mistakes, but I can't answer to a mistake made by someone else.
okay, this is deliberately inflammatory, but i was listening to a darren o'donnell play lately (white mice), and he brought something interesting up that i hadn't heard before:
guess who hitler cites as a major influence for his genocidal plans. just guess? why, the segregation and elimination of native americans.
people should stop bitching at each other. this shouldn't turn into a fight. it's just clear that some people need to do more research before making further comments.
this is a difficlut situation that has been developing for the last couple hundred years. history is the point. and o'm not sure if anyone mentioned the set back of the native boarding schools. anyone who attended a boarding school is most likely completely emotionally fucked up. that acts as a severe influence on the native community. how would you turn out if your parents were shipped off as little kids to boarding school where they were beaten, told they were useless pieces of shit and god knows what else.
there are so many factors effecting this community. but one thing is clear to me after all the books i've read, the government actually goes outof it's way to make sure that the native community doesn't get it's feet on the ground. the government has a lot to gain by having scapegoats.
i appreciate your blunt honesty... let's cast off the yoke of braininess and wallow in troglodytical insultry.
You can, if you want.
Somehow I thought you would have been above that.
This is why you disgust me.
If you can't see why it's disgusting to be airing nasty little views liek this, then I really see no need to go on discussing this issue with you.
Whether you like it or not, your prosperity is linked to their suffering.
THAT, makes their plight YOUR responsibility. Whether you act on this by talking to your MP, or voteing a certain way is your call. But to be prancing around talking about "They get to fish, they don't pay taxes on their little-assed reserves" is gross, and congruent with the line of thinking that has allowed this horror to go on for so long.
And that my dear friend, is disgusting.
And you my dear friend, are disgusting by association.
It's not an opinion of mine, it's a fact, you're disgusting, don't shoot the messenger
I'd also like to add:
words fail me, so just follow this link...
OCAP strikes again. One of the benefits of being on the mailing list. How timely.
First Nations people have surely been tolerant, been patient and been
forgiving, but this has to stand as the final example of a government that
carries itself with an attitude of complete disdain and disregard for the
lives of First Nations people. Whether it be the death of Dudley George,
continued attacks on First Nations hunting and fishing rights and the
disportionate number of First Nations people on the streets, it's clear
this government's agenda all along has been to further isolate and
impoverish First Nations people.
While First Nations elected leadership have a responsiblity to pursue all
avenues of diplomacy or potential resolution with the Ontario Tories, it
is the people who bear the brunt of the ongoing attacks and Jim Flaherty's
comments only serves as the most recent example of why talks with this
government are doomed to failure.
The upcoming leadership convention is an opportunity for all people to
challenge the Tory Government in their policies and orientation towards
First Nations people. Their track record clearly indicates that they are
unfit to govern and shouldn't be afforded the right to publicly choose a
new leader to champion their racist beliefs.
TORY LEADERSHIP CONVENTION
SATURDAY, MARCH 23RD
METRO CONVENTION CENTRE, TORONTO
your mom has done some very, very cool shit.
for people who don't know, a whole bunch of rights that came with status were taken away from native women if they married non-native men (but not native men who married non-native women). including the right live on a reserve, to be buried on a reserve, to inherit property on a reserve, to share in treaty money, the ability to pass these rights on to your kids, to participate in band politics, and other stuff that i forget.
so jeanette lavell took it to the supreme court and then some time in the 80's that section of the indian act was repealed.
Very nice work your mom has done Swilly. You should be proud.
That's pretty cool!
She sounds like an amazing lady.
Let me take you back to the start of this thread:
You pretty much represent exactly what Swilly was talking about. Your smug fucking "I'm so funny" comment after what Swilly was saying...The only person who has'nt been reading this post is you. Perhaps you did'nt get it that that kind of comment could bother someone. Perhaps you are so sure of the way things should be, you have overlooked the way they are and their effects on people. Was there a reason for this smugness? Is that how you speak to people face to face?
You were talking about people. Human beings who have been wronged in such an outrageous way their culture, their livelihoods, the very people themselves have almost been exterminated. I take extreme offense at what you said in your first post, and I take more offense that you would even bother to make it seem like it's no big deal.
Those facts are simple to you Poindexter... but I guess anything is simple when all you ever do is read it in a book or newspaper.
I wasn't being smug! I wasn't being witty and I wasn't trying to be condesending. I wasn't being sarcastic either. And I'd like to know why you feel you can degrade my life experiences as all comming from books or newspapers.
Have you ever been on a reserve fleaflo? I have which one did you visit? Do you have any relitives who are Native? I do my Aunt and yes I have sat down and talked to her about this subject countless times? What gives you the right to judge me, I haven't passed judgement on anyone.
Next off what I posted does not suggest in anyway a racist atitude. What I posted is simple fact. If I say that germans pay more income tax I'm not making a racist comment, on average germans in germany pay more of there income in taxes than we do.
Your the one who's saying that what I said is an example of what swilly is talking about. I again ask you to explain how, so far other than calling me names you don't seem to be providing me with this. Your making an assumption that I was trying to make fun or crack a joke. What if I wasn't you ever think for a second that maybe just maybe you jumped to a conclusion and then picked up the attitude.
I have been thru it all and back again a million times as a young black man and I still can't believe how people treat natives all over the world. Your post was simply beneath any form of intelligence you may have. So I thought you should know in my own 'intellectual' and 'whitty' way.
So wait one second is it because your black that your opinion counts for more. Is it because your black that you can call me names first and support your assertation second. Are you suggesting that the treatment of natives elsewhere is related to how we treat natives here.
Your accusing me of the equivilent of being a racist. And I for one would like an appology for this, I think its about as rude as you can get.
I again will state I have never in private in public or in the company of any of our mutual aquaintances ever spoken of you or to you in the following manor "your fat fucking ass Poindexter. ". I have never insulted you in this way and I do take offence.
Seems to me EVERYONE has to do a little research on this subject.
Right now, native people coming of age have two options.
A) Participate in reserve life on not-so-valuable land
- governmental financial benefits
- keeping their culture and community
- madly fucked up society due to years of colonialism (systemic suicide, despair, racism)
- no access to university education *on* the reserve, and hence absolutely no chance to gain the skills needed to both participate in native culture AND start businesses that are even moderately close to the competitive standard of the rest of the country/world.
- not to mention needing to do this isolated from the mainstream where all globally competitive businesses are - the cities. By definition, economically unfeasible.
B) Go out into the rest of Canada, maybe get a "Canadian" education
- free post-secondary education
- skill and knowledge, ability to be economically productive
CON's: - Not likely to return to the reserve (for reasons, see above)
- assimilation (which both the government AND native leaders regard as intolerable, since it is a subtle yet unintentional continuation of the policy of colonialism)
So can you all see the big catch-22 here? Keeping a separate, self-governing culture is all well and good, but that doesn't jive with the simply economics of our society.
P.S. I have to say I'm fed up with moral indignation and self-righteousness - people who criticize those with opposing opinions as "disgusting" and "idiotic" without taking time to hear them explain themselves.
i havent read this thread..so maybe this has already been mentioned..but here goes anyways..keeping with the theme of this thread..i remember learning this in anthropology, the big controversy between Hydro Quebec and The Cree (Great Whale group) in quebec.
basically what happened was that H.Q. proposed to build two turbines to flood the resevoirs, but this would all take place in the Great Whales' land. H.Q. stood to make billions of dollars, which they felt was justification for taking over the land. however they completely ignored the fact that they would be flooding over ancient graves, and farm land. H.Q. waved some money in front of the Great Whales, basically putting a price on their freedom. i really liked this one quote that the head of the Great Whales' protest group said towards Robert Bouressa (the head of H.Q) "the problem with your society is you think you can ask 'how much?' and you problems will be solved."
i dont think a more accurate thing could be said.
swilly - we studied your mother's case in my constitutional law class at osgoode. not in great detail, mind you, because it was decided under the old Bill of Rights (i.e. before the gov't introduced the Charter of Rights and Freedoms).
is this you?
i know there are northern focused colleges, but it sounds to me that canada needs a pos secondary institution dedicated to helping our native people.
going waaaaaaaaaay back to the original topic. one of my poker buddies is 1/4 ojibway. one night when he was winning my best friend started making 'native and gmabling' jokes. i found that they made me uncomfortable and spoke up against my best friend. both of them shot me down, one saying it was jsut trash talk and the other saying it didn't bother him.....i dunno. a basketball game is certianly not free of 'white men can't jump' references. does a little trash talk across the poker table constitute a racist act?
will, you went to osgoode? did you ever take any ethics courses with professor gilmour-rosenberg? she's my aunt.
ethics? what are those?
no, i didn't actually. does she still teach there? i teach a negotiating course at osgoode (along with three other practitioners) once per week, so if she does, i'll drop by her office to say hi.
Then what would you call it then.
I did'nt say you were racist...insensitive and ignorant absolutely.
My reference to my being black was more to underly the fact that no matter what crap I have had to face(and I assure you it is a lot and ongoing every day), I am still in awe at the ill treatment of natives all over the world, including Canada.
ha! ha! Apology! good one Poindexter. Sorry your 'sense of humor' doesn't include ignorance towards yourself. Maybe the next time you want to espouse a funny like that, you'll think about who it might offend.
Separate names with a comma.