question for the math people

Discussion in 'TRIBE Main Forum' started by roo, Feb 25, 2002.

  1. Jeffsus

    Jeffsus TRIBE Member

    j think, therefore j am.

    -jM
    A&D
     
  2. MKMIRAGE

    MKMIRAGE TRIBE Member

    LOL!

    1. you have used this argument on page one! If you want to convince someone that you're correct you should look for different arguments. That quasi-proof didnt work the first time, so a natural way for an old enough person is to look for another way to make people believe. good luck.

    2. your second quasi-proof is just like air-bag pointed out, flawed by mistake in the cancellation (although some mathematicians lacking imagination could argue that it's ok because number of 9s is infinite)

    You do have infinite number of 9s in 0.999....
    once you multiply it by 10 and get 9.999... the number of 9s is infinity-1.

    Thus 9x =not 9.0000000000000

    rather

    9x = 8.999.... with a 1 as the last digit (whenever you wish the infinity to become more real and finite). when you divide 8.999...1 by 9 you get 0.999999 =not 1.

    Don't give up... maybe you will find the way to prove what you believe...


    you seem so overconfident and that can really hurt you in life. I got an advice for you - listening, reflection and insight go much further than arrogance. Cockiness makes you look cockless. Taking cheap shots at others makes you look WEAK! It seems like in order to big yourself up you feel the need to put MKMIRAGE down because he disagreed with your excellence. Making (not so) smart comments in a poor attempt to look eloquent indicates that there is not much essence under the alias of pr0nstar.

    Adieu.
    M.
     
  3. PosTMOd

    PosTMOd Well-Known Member

    Wow... quite the deduction, fool.
     
  4. MKMIRAGE

    MKMIRAGE TRIBE Member

    whoa... :(me-fool-you-smart:(... you seem to be significantly better at PROVING what I think than proving your own theories... LMFAO

    M.

    PS. Anyway this thread is about Math Proofs - try another way to convince the world. hehehe...
     
  5. MKMIRAGE

    MKMIRAGE TRIBE Member

    Apologies to pr0nstar, PoSTMod was the name that eluded me...
     
  6. PosTMOd

    PosTMOd Well-Known Member

    Well, if it's apology time...

    Sorry for the patronizing tone... it's really a product of frustration because I can't articulate mathematical ideas very well (highest formal level in math I have is grade 10... had calculus waived in university)... the mathematical concepts aren't a problem, more so that I have forgotten the language of math...

    Regardless of where it comes from, the idiotic tone is unnecessary.

    You know what's funny? I deduced that you deduced that I was pr0nstar.... points out something that I often forget: false premise can give a false conclusion.
     
  7. MKMIRAGE

    MKMIRAGE TRIBE Member

    ^^^^
    no worries man, we all get off the hook at times.

    I get concerned about people who seem to know it all, they are asking life for a swift kick in the ass. But it seems that you understand yourself quite well and got the insight and understanding of why you use the patronizing tone.

    About the frustration - I absolutely understand what you are talking about! So many kids do not do well in Math because they just cannot express what they know and a lot of them know a lot! That's why when I teach - I put emphasis on talking thru the problems, explaining the thought process and describing the steps of solution - all in detailed words using the proper terms and all... and believe me - nearly everyone at every level struggles with it because they are not used to it... it takes a lot of effort to talk about those shitty numbers ;) ... and everyone gets frustrated when they know that they know the answer - but they cant prove it...

    L8s, M.
     
  8. Cheer Bear

    Cheer Bear TRIBE Member

    ^^ Hey Mike, I wish you were my Math teacher. Shit.

    I don't think I'll *ever* get it.
     
  9. air-bag

    air-bag TRIBE Member

    MKMIRAGE - calculus 137/157 eh? ;)

    did u take MAT237/257 ?
     
  10. Bass-Invader

    Bass-Invader TRIBE Member

    .999999... is 1.

    look at it from this perspective(as i said on page one)

    if two numbers, x and y, are different, then there is a difference between them such that
    x - y = a
    where a != 0. (!= means does not equal if you dont know that)

    lets let x = 1, and y = .999... and assume that these numbers are different (we assume x != y).

    now, .9999... is non-terminating, meaning there are an infinite number of nines.
    There is nothing in between .9999, and 1, meaning that subtracting the two will yield nothing.

    With that there is no difference, ergo x - y = 0, we have a contradiction, therefore x must equal y(x == y).



    If you want to look at it from a more graphical point of view, draw a numberline like 0------------1--------------2---------...
    if you drew a marker at 1, for the number 1, and a marker at .9999... they would be the same.
    Since there is no space between .9999 and 1, these markers would sit 'right beside' each other. Furthermore, since these markers are purely theoretical, and hence, have no quantifiable width, you have two markers of zero width sitting beside each other, with no space between, therefore they sit on the same spot.

    .99999 equals 1.

    there is no rounding going on, it just is the same by nature of numbers. the fact that the two exist is just a quirk of notation.

    With that, 1.999999... would also equal two etc...


    btw: am i arguing the wrong thing? i didnt quite read the last page too closely...
     
  11. Bass-Invader

    Bass-Invader TRIBE Member

     
  12. Bass-Invader

    Bass-Invader TRIBE Member

    i would like to also postulate that quote button != edit button.
     
  13. ~atp~

    ~atp~ TRIBE Member

    If you accept that 0.999... is an infinite number then 10 x 0.999 = 9.999... with an infinite string of zeros on it. (Infinity - 1) = Infinity.

    A formal proof for 0.999... = 1 (I think) involves working out the following:

    Sum (9/10^n) where n goes from 1 to infinity.
    You then apply the limit rule, and out pops a 1!

    It's pretty well accepted in all circles and books that bother bringing the issue up that the two values equate.

    -keith
     
  14. Bass-Invader

    Bass-Invader TRIBE Member

    a formal proof would be any mathematical method which works.
    You could use a limit, or just use the proof by contradiction which i used above.

    and yeah, infinity - 1 is still infinity. People need to stop thinking of infinity in finite terms. Infinity isn't 'big', its beyond that, subtracting 1 from something that continues forever would have no consequence because the number continues forever.

    Think of that infinite amount of monkeys typing on an infinite amount of typewriters for an infinite amount of time will produce every literary work ever made analogy.
    If you took one monkey away, you would still have infinite monkeys because their numbers are endless.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2002
  15. MKMIRAGE

    MKMIRAGE TRIBE Member

    There still would be one typewriter unattended to and that would certainly affect the amount of typing being done! :( This is sooo abstract...

    Btw, what is the point of an algebraic proof on something which is infinite? :p

    M.
     
  16. tobywan

    tobywan TRIBE Member

    I hated math in high school

    :mad:

    Bias
     
  17. MKMIRAGE

    MKMIRAGE TRIBE Member

    ^^^^^^^
    That's probably you had shit teachers - I dont blame you, I changed my major at Uni b/c my math prof was an ignorant and unapproachable dick...

    Nah MAT1000 and MAT1010 at York which was the top calculus, then I got turned off and switched to Major in Psych and minor in Math subsequently taking the lower and more applied levels of Algebra, higher Logic, Sets, 3rd yr Geometry and 3rd year Calc... Never regreted the desicion but I sometimes miss the geeky conversations about something that is so difficult to imagine that you can just let it go and sound like you know it all... hehehe... (not in this case tho) ;)

    No you don't - trust me - I can get quite evil... and I tease those poor kids to the level of insanity... hehehe... as for *never* getting it ... you dont really have to, as long as you can doo all the maths you need in *real* life (aka. adding up bills, figuring out tips in restaurant, thinking about monthly payments for a car... etc)
     
  18. Bass-Invader

    Bass-Invader TRIBE Member

    Infinite typewriters dude, infinite. If it helps..think of infinity as the ever-increasing number. It has no end point.

    If someone was to spend an infinite amount of time counting up, there would be no point in that time where he would say "nine-bazillion, nine jillion...nine hundred ninety nine, and infinity!!"


    to make sure stuff like .9999... equals 1..
    to do any kind of calculus

    there are retarded uses for the infinity construct in lots of stuff..
     
  19. PosTMOd

    PosTMOd Well-Known Member

    0 = infinite

    The same as saying everything is the same as nothing.

    For this, you don't need an algebraic proof, just a bunch of k.
     

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