pussy palace ruling

Discussion in 'TRIBE Main Forum' started by janiecakes, Jan 22, 2002.

  1. OTIS

    OTIS TRIBE Member

    So, if you want to have sex with that person, why not just bring them home, or rent a hotel room, does a token of promiscuity like a "Bathhouse" really mean that much to the gay community?

    When massage parlors get raided, no one cares really. They are usually shady run operations that people are glad to see go.

    Or booze cans, when those get raided people say oh what a shame & move on..

    Why does the Gay community see it as such a personal attack?

    -OTIS
     
  2. Ditto Much

    Ditto Much TRIBE Member

    fact - Police raid bath house with naked women in it.
    fact - Police are male
    In dispute - Police take extra vigilance in the search as to stare at as many naked women as possible.


    I believe that this is the argument right. The fact that the men were in some manor gratifying themselves with the women as victims.


    I just want to understand the argument. Far as the existence or legality of bath houses I don't think that's at concern. The fact that they may have been violating LCBO laws is a matter for another court case entirely. Being that they're arguing that the search was illegal this would make evidence stemming from the search inadmissible. Thus any charges using this evidence would be over with.

    Is this really a fight for rights or is this a fight to avoid a liquor bylaw?


    If the police had been women would it have been different?


    Did the women not wave their right to privacy when they entered the public bathhouse?
     
  3. SE7EN

    SE7EN TRIBE Member

    what a huge generalization.

    -7-
     
  4. janiecakes

    janiecakes TRIBE Member

    well, it's not really that simple, or easy to explain i guess.

    the bathhouse raids in 1981 are known as 'canada's stonewall' (stonewall is a bar in manhattan that kept getting raided in the late 60's, the patrons fought back one night and had a big riot, it was the beginning of the modern queer rights movement). the cops busted in and badly beat up a bunch of queers, called them faggots, said they should be gassed to death, refused to show warrants and badges, arrested 300 people (including a medic) and caused $35,000 worth of damage.

    after that happened there were a bunch of demos where people got beaten up again, and a whole bunch of groups got set up, like anti-gay bashing patrols and stuff like that. some people consider it the beginning of toronto's queer community as it is today.

    so bathhouse raids have this added significance because of what's happened in the past.

    there are a lot of queers who LIKE having sex in bathhouses, and LIKE public sex, and have been allowed to get down that way for 2 decades now. the issue with this pussy palace thing isn't whether or not people are allowed to have sex in bathhouses, because they are, and no patrons were arrested for indecent acts. the issue is that 5 male cops spent an hour and a half in a relatively small venue taking names from and questioning partially dressed or naked chicks in the first raid on a bathhouse in 20 years.
     
  5. OTIS

    OTIS TRIBE Member

    That's the answer I was looking for, it increases the significance of the initial post dramatically.
     
  6. 416

    416 TRIBE Member

    Word. It's consentual sex in what's considered a private space (cause you gotta rent the cube thingy).

    It's no different then boinking in a hotel room.

    Also, I totally don't beleive that Fantino didn't know anything about it. Bathhouses aren't harrased by the city for 20 years, Fantino comes to town, and all of a sudden there's a bust. Whoa. Rewiew his record from London, On. This dude is obviously a homophobe.
     
  7. Fir3start3r

    Fir3start3r TRIBE Member

     
  8. Hal-9000

    Hal-9000 TRIBE Member

    I would say, YES to that. Do they really believe we're that niave as to what kind of job they do?
    I believe it to be a ploy to cover the main concern.[/quote]

    It's a bathhouse! People don't pay, there are no "jobs".
     
  9. Ditto Much

    Ditto Much TRIBE Member

    No thats there argument to throw out of court the evidance against the bathhouse for liquor license violations.

    Lets be realistic here would there be an argument is the officers had been female?

    Did the police officers try to gratify themselves through an abuse of power?

    Were the womens rights to privacy violated by the search. Was there an expectation of privacy in the public areas. If a private cubicle was openned then I can agree that there rights were violated. If the police however did there questioning and interviews in a public area and the women went into the cubicles without sufficent clothing to allow there comfort that really isn't an invasion of privacy.


    I'm not arguing that the police were right!!!

    I'm trying to debate the privacy rights of the women. An hour and a half for a liquor license violation inspection isn't unusual. Interviewing everyone who was in possession of the illegaly sold booze however is ODD!!! Again though its not without presedance, police regualrly take all the names of people at booze can raids. Those who don't have id availible (and I doubt a naked women would have any) are going to be questioned furthur.

    I'm just trying to figure out from a conservative point of view if this search was conducted in an illegal fashion.
     
  10. Fir3start3r

    Fir3start3r TRIBE Member

    It's a bathhouse! People don't pay, there are no "jobs".
    Bah...you know what I mean... [​IMG]
     
  11. 416

    416 TRIBE Member

    What are you trying to imply? What "Job" are they doing?

    Dude, I totally know what you mean. You know what I can't stand? It's those fuckin boat people who steal our jobs and can't even FUCKIN SPEAK ENGLISH. They're mostly Arabs. Likely Taliban members. I say we round em all up with the queers and other assorted minorities (eskimos, injuns, blacks, reds, yellers, colerds) and ship em back to africa where they belong. Sortof a Reverse Marcus Garvey type deal.
     
  12. SUNKIST

    SUNKIST TRIBE Member

    isn't a womens bathhouse for men to go into to have sex with the women? or is it women for women?
     
  13. Ditto Much

    Ditto Much TRIBE Member

    women for women.

    Mens bathhouse are men for men.

    And "massage parlours" are being argued to be women for men.


    Bathhouse traditionally charge a cover for providing the location and amenities. In this case they were also illegally selling booze.
     
  14. OTIS

    OTIS TRIBE Member

    woman-a-woman
     
  15. janiecakes

    janiecakes TRIBE Member

    also, according to mariana valverde, some criminology professor at uoft, it's unusual for police to lay liquor license violation charges themselves, or prosecuting them through the courts. they're usually handled by the liquor control board of ontario who issues warnings or denies future permits.
     
  16. MBoy

    MBoy TRIBE Member

    Shall I start a thread to this effect in the "Roll Calls" forum? I think it would be a hit.
     
  17. janiecakes

    janiecakes TRIBE Member

    they had a permit to sell booze.

    the infractions were about the proper area and time to serve it in, and some dykes raunching out in the wrong spot or something.
     
  18. SUNKIST

    SUNKIST TRIBE Member

    ahh ok thanks..
    and i was just gonna mention the same things Jane. Wouldnt the Liquor Control Board, or whoever, bet eh oens to handle concerns about liquor laws...as opposed to plain clothes police..i guess therein lies their argument.
     
  19. janiecakes

    janiecakes TRIBE Member

    *poos on Fir3start3r*
     
  20. janiecakes

    janiecakes TRIBE Member

    but then they wouldn't get to ogle naked chicks getting it on with each other.
     
  21. Ditto Much

    Ditto Much TRIBE Member

    Control Board only busts for certain offences. In the case of a booze can its more than likely the cops who actually do the raid. In the case of an establishment serving alcohol to minors its again 50.50. In the case of a drunk driver being caught its almost %100 Control board.

    It really depends! But generally if its a night time raid its done by the police. Again I want to point out that I'm not arguing against the bathhouse's. However I'm trying to question if this is a matter of rights, or if this is a mtter of trying to avoid a LCBO charge by whatever means necessary.

    My god suddenly I realize that I have had far far to many dealings with the police.
     
  22. SUNKIST

    SUNKIST TRIBE Member

    exactle. nothing but perverted men throwing around their authority.
     
  23. janiecakes

    janiecakes TRIBE Member

    but this wasn't a booze can, it's about their special occasion permit.

    and they've already spent an insane amount of money and time on fighting the charges, i doubt it's to avoid a simple fine.
     
  24. Ditto Much

    Ditto Much TRIBE Member


    Fair enough and being that they're fighting on the basis of an illegal search it is somewhat irrelevent for me to bring up.

    This however still leaves the question of if the search was illegal or not. They don't seem to be arguing against the validity of the search only against its execution if I read whats being said correctly.

    If naked women are going to be present can male police be involved in a search?

    What if the raid or search was happening in a strip club?

    What if the raid was happening at a private residance where a lesbian orgy happened to be occuring?

    Is there a limit to how long a naked woman can be questioned by a police officer?


    The assumption is being made that the police where there purely for the purpose of gratification. It is being argued that they took longer to do there job because naked women were present. I believe its also being argued that the only reason the search occured is because male police officers wanted to see naked women.

    am I correct in this?
     
  25. Booty Bits

    Booty Bits TRIBE Member

    Ditto Much,

    I think that the cops did it to antagonize the patrons as much as they did it to ogle them.

    but i could be wrong.
     

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