Discussion in 'TRIBE Main Forum' started by TraNceAhoLic, Jan 11, 2002.

  1. PosTMOd

    PosTMOd Well-Known Member

    Just like anything in life then, right?

    Truth be told, alcohol-- legal-- causes way more problems than all the other illegal drugs put together...

    Oh, and another truth: in the Netherlands, where drug users aren't shit on, the addiction rates for heroin are 1/10th of those here in North America... hmmmm?

    Selection bias is the first thing you should mention when talking about drug studies...
  2. Quirkz

    Quirkz TRIBE Member

    Let's consider street kid who starts using opiates, vs. crack, vs. alcohol.

    I guarentee you the opiate using street kid has the best life expectancy and health.
  3. DJAlchemy

    DJAlchemy TRIBE Promoter

    I can't believe I'm saying this but: Jack it doon!

    Really there is more anger in the above tones then necessary. I don't think anyone was trying to accuse or belittle anyone else, so lets try not to take each others words as personal attacks.

    emiwee: I think that if you were to look at any recovering addict you would have the same disgusted opinion about the drugs they were taking. Obviously taking drugs legal or otherwise involves risks and the further you move up the drug ladder the greater risks you are taking. Legal drugs can actually be the most dangerous because many people seem to think that because they are legal they must be pretty much harmless. I think this is a big misconception and one of the reasons there are as many alcoholics as there are.

    I wanted to try smoking opium (cause I like my doobage so much) but I think I'm through with putting any more forign substances in my body.

    Peace & love. D
  4. BassInMyFace

    BassInMyFace TRIBE Member

    Easy tiger easy.
    The devils work is a funny figure of speach. Perhaps I shouldnt have included all OTC drugs. And yes I agree that it was the usage that was the Devils Work. [​IMG]

    This is somthing I did when I was like 17, so as for the name calling...LoL BumBum? I was just relating a OTC drug experience....
  5. DJAlchemy

    DJAlchemy TRIBE Promoter

    hahaha! the top two thread right now are




    rave on!
  6. t-boy

    t-boy TRIBE Member

    hey that's why i said bumbum, not "you fucking idiot", because i wasn't trying to insult you.. jeez can't posts have some fake attitude anymore? [​IMG]

    fuck i've done even more retarded things.. i'm not even going to mention them.
  7. emiwee

    emiwee TRIBE Member

    i honestly don't understand what you mean by this point... i am not talking abou the US... nor am i referring to a time when Nixon was in power (you must remember, that was over a generation ago... a very different social context)... what you show in that paragraph is that drug use is a large monetary problem... so what? that's common knowledge.

    how so? do street drug users have an agenda of study result destruction? if we are conducting a project on the behaviours of street drug users, we're not going to interview the Pope, now are we? street drug studies need to involve street drug users... without them, we would be making even more erroneous assumptions

    this is simply not true... addiction can be a problem... usage is not the problem... any first year psychology textbook will tell you this...

    uh, you mean "THEIR"?

    i'm assuming by this statement that you have A) been a very regular opiate user who underwent terrible withdrawal AND B) been someone who was a casual user and got the "flu" upon abstinence?
    This simply doesn't make sense... you tell me later that i can't understand until i experience it... so i'm guessing you've experienced this?

    again... simple crap from a first year psychology text book... i understand tolerance... i never claimed that you start at "square one" after a period of abstinence... i don't even understand the relevance

    i never said that i was an expert... and since i'm never going to go out get hooked on opiates just to know how it feels, i guess i will never know (by your definition)... your suggestion seems to be that anyone who wishes to study opiate use must become an opiate user... that honestly doesn't make any sense... i'm sure that there are many experiences in this world that we can appreciate without engaging in them first-hand

    and as a final note to you Quirkz... i have read some of your ideas on drug usage before... and you seem to be a proponent of usage in order to be in a position to comment upon drug use... i may have mentioned before that this is a dangerous proposition... just because you use doesn't mean you know... and just because you don't use doesn't mean you can't know at least something about the nature of drug addiction
  8. emiwee

    emiwee TRIBE Member

    everyone on here seems to have some type of complex whereby they must always be right....
    you keep refuting my points with information that i never even mention...

    i never said that illicit drug use was worse than licit or legal drug use... i agree that alcohol use and abuse, as well as nicotine, are incredibly more damaging than illicit drug use...

    i have conceded to the majority of the points that you people bring up... but for once can you not concede to some of the points i am making??
    i am assuming that the majority of you are not involved in front-end empirical research with regards to illicit drug use... and, because i am, i am just trying to share a little bit of my experience...

    i do recognize that empirical research studies are flawed... any competent researcher would admit this too... and yes, selection bias is an important point... many of these studies operate on a volunteer basis... and that in itself is problematic, because the only interface to provide information to solicit participants is through needle exchange and other social services... and there is inherently something special about those who seek help as compared to those who are quiet about their illicit drug use...

    so please, you don't need to attack me... i am making my points just as you are making yours... and i have not come down on everything you have said

  9. BassInMyFace

    BassInMyFace TRIBE Member

    My apologies, I misinterpreted your fake attitude for actual attitude....my mistake!

    Yeah Ive got some dumb things under my belt too...Heh heh.......

    *note to self* bumbum = you big ol lovable dummy! [​IMG]
  10. emiwee

    emiwee TRIBE Member

    the netherlands is a very different society than that of north america, so it is difficult to make the comparison... there are other factors at play than simply legislation of drugs
  11. Tonedeff

    Tonedeff TRIBE Member

    It's not a meaningless statement, it's simple biochemistry. You can't muddle individual psychological consequences and their attendant physical consequences to refute something that has been demonstrated by hard science. Find me ANYTHING written by a doctor or a scientest that refutes the statement that opiates are not neurotoxic and only slightly toxic somatically and then you have a departure point for a discussion.

    And I am not talking about someone who fixes every couple of hours with whatever is being sold as junk at the local cop shop, or about the potential for neurochemical changes with long term continued use of a drug that induces euphoria, changes in the brain's reward and anticipation systems, physical dependancy, etc. These are two different narratives: one has a readily established and referrable beginning and end written by medical science; the other is full of variables and plot twists that are specific to the characters involved.

    Yes there are profound and sometimes irreversible psychological consequences to an opiate addiction, and yes, these psychological consequences can manifest themselves physically and neurochemically in a person for any number of different reasons, including lifestyle, diet, pre-existing or underlying physical and mental conditions, but this doesn't change the fact that opiates are not harmful as chemicals interacting with chemicals in your brain.

    As for the empirical study you cited, I am not going to comment on it for reasons already mentioned...
  12. t-boy

    t-boy TRIBE Member

    alright, alright, c'mere ya big ol' lovable dummy and gimme a hug.

    PLUR, you dumdum! Lol

    ok i'm off to snort some chowdah
  13. Quirkz

    Quirkz TRIBE Member

    internet spelling in effect...

    With the overwhelming presence of anti-drug propaganda, mis-information, and even valid information, keeping an objective context is very hard, and I just don't think you do it. I'm sure if you're immersed at the centre it's practically impossible.

    Maybe I should say, any study that draws from street drug users and then tries to imply that conclusion is valid for everybody, or jsut even more stupidly, doesn't aknowledge that it is limited to whatever type of person decides to live that way on the street.

    A common flaw when people think about drug use seems to be how they weight personality and personal factors. We've been programmed to think they are neligble considerations when a person decieds to throw their, *cough* I mean there, life away to drugs. It's so easy to want to find a scapegoat, and it's so easy to lay more on it then you really should.

    Like that other thread about drunk driving. Why are there such light penalties for drunk driving? Because it's a social norm to think that you are much less responsible for things you do when you are fugged up. That's wrong, that's just an easy out, and it's why drugs are so demonized and considered a scouge by so many..

    And yes, I am intentionaly pro-drug, but I wouldn't consider myself the "devil's advocate".

    As for my drug use, that's personal, but I'm a profesional, I make good money, and I still do a lot of stupid things just for the fuck of it. And it's a lto of fun.

    so their! [​IMG]
  14. Ditto Much

    Ditto Much TRIBE Member

    You fucking asshole.

    Most of the people on this board are dumb enough to try playing with these. For christ sakes what the fuck are you thinkiong listing a god damn shopping list for morons who know no better.

    You didn't even have enough class to mention any of there addictive properties. Shit next time I see you I'm going to bitch slap you PUBLICLY!!!!!
  15. t-boy

    t-boy TRIBE Member

  16. Tonedeff

    Tonedeff TRIBE Member

    and emiwee don't take anything I say as a personal attack, I enjoy your posts and you are obviously an intelligent person, but I reserve the right to disagree with you and state the reasons for my disagreement...

    and can you do something about your username, just typing it made me cringe [​IMG]
  17. Ditto Much

    Ditto Much TRIBE Member

    We don't advertise this shit here have some common respect.
  18. emiwee

    emiwee TRIBE Member

    just because i'm bored on a friday night... i decided to take you up on your offer of finding medical evidence of toxicity of opiates... and i found some!

    Pharmacological characterization of morphine-6-sulfate and codeine-6-sulfate.
    AU: Author
    Zuckerman A; Bolan E; de Paulis T; Schmidt D; Spector S; Pasternak GW

    Immunotoxicological screening of morphine and methadone in an extended 28 day study in rats.
    AU: Author
    van der Laan JW; Krajnc EI; Krajnc-Franken MA; van Loveren H

    Functional neurotoxicity of drugs of abuse.
    AU: Author
    Pulvirenti L

    Methadone toxicity causing death in ten subjects starting on a methadone maintenance program.
    AU: Author
    Drummer OH; Opeskin K; Syrjanen M; Cordner SM

    to save you some reading... the basic idea of these articles is that opiates are neurotoxic... specifically affecting the immune system


    (however... i do not like to rely on animal studies fully because they are not always transferable to humans... and i will admit that there were articles that stated opiates were minimally neurotoxic as well... just like any research... there's evidence for both sides)
  19. emiwee

    emiwee TRIBE Member

    *laugh*... why?
  20. emiwee

    emiwee TRIBE Member

    since when is a pro-drug use opinion objective? and i agree there is misinformation... just as there's misinformation about how "non-harmful" drug use is

    i never meant to imply that these results were applicable to everybody... they are applicable to the subjects of the study!

    and just by some of your ideas and atrocious spelling... it leaves me wondering what kind of "professional" you are....

  21. Tonedeff

    Tonedeff TRIBE Member

    okay, I have to go out into the real world now, so I will respond to this more completely later...but is there a online link for that study? what were the daily dosages per kg and how frequently were they administered? how do they extrapolate immunotoxicity to straight neurotoxicty?

    and your username just reminds me of baby talk (emily->emiwee), a minor pet peeve of mine [​IMG]
  22. PosTMOd

    PosTMOd Well-Known Member

    Ummm... neurotoxic... immune system? Hello?
  23. Tonedeff

    Tonedeff TRIBE Member

  24. emiwee

    emiwee TRIBE Member

    you'll have to check it out on MEDLINE... the abstracts are pretty extensive...

    and sorry my username rubs you the wrong way... *wink*
  25. Rosey

    Rosey TRIBE Member

    yeah, that's what i was wondering too.

    but i've been mean and grumpy enough for one day. and i don't know enough to hold my own in this arguement.

    but please continue. i am enjoying this.

    although ditto much has a point.

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