Christian Rock and Pop.

Discussion in 'TRIBE Main Forum' started by coleridge, Mar 7, 2002.

  1. deep

    deep TRIBE Member



    Beats me dude. My family's hindu. We don't have a "Him", we have about a gajillion of "them"

    that right there puts just about everything to do with religion in a nutshell
     
  2. R4V4G3D_SKU11S

    R4V4G3D_SKU11S TRIBE Member

    Agreed. But no one is born knowing this. We all learn right and wrong, through *many* different avenues. These could be our parents, teachers, priests, etc. There are so many things which influence our value systems.


    Once again, people are blindly assuming that religion brainwashes people into thinking that the only reason people must behave a certain way is in order not go to hell. However, People in the church are not automatons. They alsolive in the real world, have real jobs. They do not believe that stealing is wrong strictly because it is morally bankrupt. They *also* understand that it hurts victims/society. They *also* understand they might go to jail. There are also numerous other factors involved in the decision. They then take *all* of these and blend them into one decision making schema. They are not "brainwashed" by the church into only considering one single factor, the moral factor.
    Thereofore, if there are many different factors which influence a human beings decision making process, why is christianity being factored out as an all controlling bad guy?

    Rosey - you had this bad experience. It was a pretty strong dose of fire and brimstone. So you decide not to partake in it. That's great - you shouldn't feel forced into a religion. But just because it didn't improve your life, why is it wrong for other people use it as a basis for what they beleive to be a good life?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2002
  3. R4V4G3D_SKU11S

    R4V4G3D_SKU11S TRIBE Member

    That's great! You're SO allowed to do that. But why judge others decisions and tell them that doing otherwise is wrong?
     
  4. labRat

    labRat TRIBE Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: coleridge, good one bruvah!

    my point was referring to the way that some people live every second of their lives according to their little instructional book that they receive from their church. i've seen it in people and it boggles me.

    to allow influence from whatever is the way that we are, like i said if someone allows one particular type to totally control them it seems like they can't think for themselves. that's just me - not you. i don't disagree with church or anything that it offers, i just don't do it up that way. and if i did, i would use it to enhance a certain part of my life not control it.

    another thing that doesn't seem to fit in is that church or religion seems to be totally dependent on geographic and family history. you follow a religion from birth because that's what your parents are, you go to a particular church because it's usually closest to you. why does that all of a sudden become The Way? Why not buddhism, hinduism, orthodox jewish? Are these other ways wrong? and if so, is that just because you were told from birth that?

    --craig
     
  5. R4V4G3D_SKU11S

    R4V4G3D_SKU11S TRIBE Member

    What does that have to do with anything? Does the fact that you took a harder route make your lessons more valuable than those learned by someone else?

    And what makes you think that the religious way is the easy route? In an increasingly secular world, I think it'd be harder to be a Christian than otherwise.
     
  6. Rosey

    Rosey TRIBE Member

    it's backlash from being judged. i live a good life, yet am told that i will suffer and go to hell and i am a bad person. my mother told me that i ruined christmas because i refused to go to church. people come to my door to talk to me about jesus....even the fucking KFC delivary fucking guy wanted to talk to me about church.....your point is exactly our point. religion is based on judging people, you did this so you won't get into heaven, you did that so you will. BAM! i refuse to be judged by you! i judge your judgement to be false and unsubstantiated. you (not you personally kevin) are not qualified to judge my actions, only i can do that!

    it's not wrong for an individual to choose religion as a personal spiritual choice, i never said that. it is wrong to use the tenants of that religion to judge and condem others.
     
  7. Colm

    Colm TRIBE Member

    Honestly, when was the last time anyone you knew got hooked on Christian Rock? I come from a very Catholic family, and I still continue to be spiritual myself... and guess what, Ive never listened to even a whole Christian rock song ever... nor do I belong to anything even remotely like a cult.
    And what is wrong with their marketing scheme? You are claiming that they are violating free thought, but how is different from any other music/media marketing? In case you havent noticed, but the basic principle of all marketing to get others to buy into what your selling. In that light, whats the difference between the average Christian rock artist (whoever they are) making their living in music and the average teen-age 'boyband', etc?

    Where is your difference of brain-washing between the two? Is it beause one is secular and the other spiritual? Therefore, it is ok to promote secularism - naturalism even, because it doesnt introduce a 'moral code'. However, it does. It only introduces a different one. And from your post, it seems that you support one over the other, and criticise others for choosing a different path.

    Just make sure you can seperate the two.
     
  8. R4V4G3D_SKU11S

    R4V4G3D_SKU11S TRIBE Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: coleridge, good one bruvah!

    That is a *small* minority of Christians.

    Agreed, living every second of your life based on what someone else tells you (whether its through the media, church, parents, friends) is weakminded. But you can't generalize that alot of Christians do that. It's just not true. The majority of Christians live in the real world and take their cues from many source. And therefore you can't move forward and generalize that all Christianity is for weak minded people. (And I don't actually think that you're doing that, but alot of people I've spoken with like to)
     
  9. R4V4G3D_SKU11S

    R4V4G3D_SKU11S TRIBE Member

    Agreed. What happened in your situation isn't right. However it is also wrong for people to use secular tenants to judge and condemn those who are religious.
     
  10. labRat

    labRat TRIBE Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: coleridge, good one bruvah!

    you should take a trip down to the bible belt in the southern states - it's quite a bit different down there.
     
  11. Rosey

    Rosey TRIBE Member

    i was just responding to choosey's allegation that it was harder to be a sheep than an individual.

    i think it does. you get what you pay for.

    i will stipulate that we all have our own, individual hardest route. certainly for me that road goes far, far, far, away from organized religion.

    i'm heading home now,
    peace,
    -ross
     
  12. twist

    twist TRIBE Member

    has anyone actually listened to the preachy kind of christian rock and hip hop? dude... it's FUCKING LAME. IF you would actually stop to listen to that pretentious shit in any form then you deserve to be brainwashed and made a permanent audience member of the 700 club. Trust me these kids that can get brainwashed by that shite are better off being sucked into uber-bible land where they won't bother me and they can give out all the drug free happy hold hands sing along love they want. Fucking weirdos.
     
  13. Colm

    Colm TRIBE Member

    just a quick opinion on the judging thing... I dont think anyone can ever claim that they do not judge people... we do it everyday - for example, how many times have you met an overweight person of the opposite sex and immediately ruled them out as a possible intimate relationship? What I am saying is that everyone judges, and we are all such idiots for doing it. We should be judging our own actions, because in the end, it is our final decision on everything.

    Furthermore, as a Catholic, it makes me so mad when I meet the 'uber-religious' people who seem to feel it is their necessity to preach, and in many cases, judge. Its really a perversion of being Christian, and it sucks for the Christians who are not like that. A Christian is supposed to be open and accepting of everyone, we dont even have to be overtly preaching - thats not even what we are supposed to do most of the time! Another thing, it is Catholic belief that when a person dies, THEY decide where they go, heaven or hell.. it is not God nor any other force. It really saddens me when I see so much wasted energy on this whole judgement thing.

    peace.
     
  14. The Watcher

    The Watcher TRIBE Member

    If people are religious, I dont think that what they are doing is wrong at all, like I said earlier, I just think that they are doing these things for the wrong reasons that's all. Not that I want anyone to change, I just want people to realize that you should do things to better yourself as a person, not because some higher power that you will never see, hear nor even understand dictates that you should do it that way.

    I'm glad Christianity is there, because without it... or without all the other major religions, we would probable live in Chaos.

    It's through Christianism that I learned most of my morals and honor and other teachings... but I came to the realization that it I dont need religion,... common sence can teach me that same things, science can teach me similar values. I dont need to believe in some godly power to find out the difference between right and wrong.

    I dont want to judge, I just want you to know why I do things, maybe I can teach you something too

    K... well... Live and let Live
    Do onto others as you would have them do on to you

    Well... time for me to go...
    Nickers -
     
  15. rswbrixton

    rswbrixton TRIBE Member

    I like religious music ...."Jesus Built My Hotrod" by Ministry is a fuckin great spiritual track .


    Believe in yourself and everything else in life is a cakewalk !!

    rswbrixton 3:16
     
  16. cdp

    cdp TRIBE Member

    I can't stand religious pop/rock/whatever... but every once in a while there's an exception. Ever heard Cross Movement? Rap from philly, very nifty.

    charleS.
     
  17. twist

    twist TRIBE Member

    everyone judges in some form or another. It's how you ensure the survival of yourself and your estate (in whatever form that may be) It's OK to judge but not as a malicious practice. Anyone who says they don't lie or don't judge are liars it's not a bad thing it's human nature not just humans either. I mean if it goes to far... into a state of close mindedness or oppression then that sux but that doesn't make the idea itself bad. It's like anything when you get into extremes it gets sketchy. But mainly word to what colm said.
     
  18. joey

    joey TRIBE Member

    havent read the thread yet, i will then talk, cause i used to be gody

    but,
    how about christian heavy metal???

    my old favourite band was a christian heavy metal band called Bride
    (as in the bride of christ)

    other good groups were:
    Holy Soldier, Amathest,
    im soo drawing a blank.. more later
     
  19. Plato

    Plato TRIBE Member

    once i was at a friends house, and he's christian...although not hardcore, but anyways, i was snooping through his cds collection (cause thats what i do..cd's, medicine cabinets, drawers, closets, books, backpacks, etc...heh heh :D ) and came across a bright yellow reminiscint of DR work, so i looked at it. turns out to be christian hip hop.
    i look at it, have achuckle, he says its not bad...although not great...i mention wanting to hear it osme time
    so he lent it to me

    its actually not bad.
    think will smith style rated-pg hip hop mixed with eminems rhyming style and skill
    thats john ruben
    sure some tracks are very...I LOVE GOD! YAY GOD! style tunes..but not so in your face that its unlistenable unless you are uber-hardcore jesus lover.
    it touches on themes of deceptive women (something any guy of any belief could relate with) making your own descisions and not being influenced by others, finding ones place and purpose in life (aside from being a "good christian").

    so while listening to it i recalled an epiphany i had had one time while discussing contemporary religious music about a year ago.

    christian albums are no different from a concept album.

    their concept is simply god and their beliefs.
    is it any different from the orb doing an album about outer space and extra terrestrial beings and experiences? or orbital doing an album about their never ending melancholy? or portishead doing an album about heartache and depressing love tales?

    no.

    so rather than christian music, think of it as a concept album artist.
    does your opinion about them differ now?

    now obviously there are some bands that are manufactured to do PR for god and jesus...but these would be the equivalent to say brittney spears or destiny's child.

    also, how many r&b and gosple albums sound sooo simmilar, yet since the theme of religion is more prevailant the genre is split into these 2 fractions??

    mary mary doesnt sound that different from say, changing faces, or swv, or en vouge's slower stuff, etc etc.

    how many christians or skids or whatever think that electronic music is all repetitive noises tha only sound good if you are on crack and heroin?? now i know you'd all be rather angry with such a generalisation.
    but isnt that what some of you are doing with "christian" music??

    btw, john ruben is jewish but he sings about jesus.
    wtf!?

    p[l]a+0
     
  20. djcheezwhiz

    djcheezwhiz TRIBE Member

    is the true point of this thread trashing christian rock hip hop or the exploring the reasons behind the creation & support of this market by the church??

    the united states religious right has always been a major force in US politics & influencing the decisions of the lawmakers...under clinton this grip was loosened...the moral structure of the nation was deteriorating according to the right, & as pews became less full across the nation the church needed to explore new ways to attract & retain it's congregations...one of the major ways to reach out to youth is through music...now, old style hymns just aren't going to cut it, so there is an attempt to mimic the mainstream styles of todays music...

    hence when flicking through channels, stop at ctn for a while & watch...this kids do actually believe in what they are doing & in what they are saying...i actually respect them for being so convicted in their beliefs...however that is just the surface & like everything else, for every one person with good intentions you have the zealists mentioned in matts original post...so...

    in my opinion what is truly scary, is the power of the religious right in the states...anti abortion laws (never mind terrorism of shooting abortion doctors), the moral majority, the influence on mainly white middle to upper class families (protecting their rights, the rights of the family)...in effect there is no choice, but i'm going to put make my beliefs your beliefs, because my beliefs are right & you are "morally wrong"...& this is where the danger lies...

    definitely many valid points raised in this topic...

    one only has to look at the article in the globe & mail today about beauty pageants to see the moralization & sterilification (if thats a word) of our society (& in particular the us)...

    jc

    ps there was a time in the mid 80's when u2 were embraced by the church...
     
  21. Colm

    Colm TRIBE Member

    concerns what djcheesewhiz said... really?

    I think you might have fallen into stereotype yourself. You seem to have been persuaded that the televangelist style of Christianity represents the Church. If you didnt know, the term 'Church' is used when referring to the Catholic Church. Most televangelists are not Catholic, thats something you really need to keep in mind.

    Also, keep in mind the religious right that you claim to have pinpointed represents less than 1% of Christians worldwide. Currently, as of the latest UN report, there are approx. 2 billion Christians in the world... of that number, 1.6 are Catholic - what Im saying is, be sure you know which group you are talking about. Try not to fall into stereotypes.
     
  22. j bunny 2000

    j bunny 2000 TRIBE Member

    I believe that b/c organized religion is devrived mainly from family lines it puts an amount of pressure on a person to conform and practice. I went to a catholic high school and observed people going to mass and partaking in religious organized activities. It always seemed to me that they were doing all that stuff b/c its what there family wanted or they didn't want to seem unmoral in front of our teachers. To me it always seemed like a large flock of sheep who weren't practicing because there hearts were into it, but because it was the right thing to do in the eyes of their parents and the institution. In the catholic church you are a confimred member at age 13... how at the age 13 suppose to know that this religion is for u??? not because you deeply believe, but because your family and school make you think it is what is right to be a good person! No one knows who they are as an adolescent!!! Your life is just beginning so how can religion institutions expect children to make such a solid decision about faith when they have probably only been exposed to that religion.

    To me group type religion is absurb, i believe religion is a very personal journey. Understanding yourself in a spiritual sense cannot be done by prouncing yourself a faith at birth, it comes from life experiences and overtime you find yourself in that way.

    I think i would want my children to grow up in a home where they would understand that a larger force greater then themselves exists, but would not make them feel that there is only one "right" way to understand that.

    my 2 cents

    Jess
     
  23. djcheezwhiz

    djcheezwhiz TRIBE Member

    i don't want to bash...it seems a lot of people today are searching for something to believe in, be it through organized religion or through other forms of independent spirituality (for me it's calvin & hobbes :) ) ... anyways my point was directed at the religious right in the states, & the neo conservatism which is sweeping our southern neighbour in the face of todays realities...the power of this group in the united states (& you pointed out percentages yourself) based on their relative size is definitely out of proportion & pretty scary...

    but, be careful of putting too much faith into the institution of church (including catholic) if what you truly seek is a relationship with whatever God you worship...

    jc
     
  24. coleridge

    coleridge TRIBE Member

    As Cheezewhiz said, this thread was supposed to be more about examining the reason for the Christian Pop market.

    Christian pop/rock music, as the I'm sure the musicians will tell you, is supposed to be a celebartion of Christian ideals and beliefs through modern "pop" music. So they can share their joyful message with the youth of today. There's nothing wrong with that. Music written from the heart, meant to express feeling, is a wonderfull thing.

    However, the industry and popularity of the genre exists because of the greedy predatorial tactics of evangilists. There's no arguing there, especially when they (the record label owners and evangilists) freely admit that the industry exists to provide a powerfull tool in the crusade to win the youth of the world over to Christianity. They control the musicians like puppets and decide who and what is going to be marketed. Musicians are hand picked and primed to mimic mainstream pop culture trends, there's nothing original about their product. It's formulatic tactics that have nothing to do free musical thought. In the documentary a band member decides to die his hair blue. He's immediately repremanded because "blue hair" does not represent an ideal of a good Christian youth. The labels and evangilists are all controlling, the musicians exist as tools under their belts.

    The labels and evangilists not only get their weapon of choice but they also fill up their bank accounts as well. There's nothing wrong with making money, I support capatilism .... but I have a big problem with people who make large sums of money hidden under the "righteous" guise of helping the poor and weak see the way.
     
  25. labRat

    labRat TRIBE Member

    i'd rather have my children listen to christian rock/pop/rap/metal/whatev' than the "bling bling bitch ho" hip hop or "depressing poor me" grundgey rock or "i'm a skinny slut" pop. as long as not too preachy.

    --craig
     

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